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A Political Thread
- Thread starter Draggs
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"Arbitrary".
Yes but Australia isn't run by a dictator although I'm sure you would object to their immigration policy. Not that you will have such moral problems soon as we are leaving the EU
Some of these Labour MPs are terribly inept.
As a Labour MP, whatever your stance on the issue of Trident, it is evident that bringing this debate forward has been Tory political point-scoring. Every single one of the Labour MPs ought to be abstaining with the central message that they won't engage politically with this. Those who have objections about the actual content should abstain with reasonable amendments and seek to change the bill later.
But the thing getting me are those Labour MPs that are patronising many Labour members and voters as a way of getting at Corbyn. e.g. (from the Guardian): "Toby Perkins, who ran Liz Kendall’s leadership campaign, said that he’d been a member of CND as a teenager and that the front bench’s arguments were ones that his 13 year old self would have made."
As a Labour MP, whatever your stance on the issue of Trident, it is evident that bringing this debate forward has been Tory political point-scoring. Every single one of the Labour MPs ought to be abstaining with the central message that they won't engage politically with this. Those who have objections about the actual content should abstain with reasonable amendments and seek to change the bill later.
But the thing getting me are those Labour MPs that are patronising many Labour members and voters as a way of getting at Corbyn. e.g. (from the Guardian): "Toby Perkins, who ran Liz Kendall’s leadership campaign, said that he’d been a member of CND as a teenager and that the front bench’s arguments were ones that his 13 year old self would have made."
Prob the most successful point scoring in parliament for some time mind.
138 Lab MPs voted for by the sounds of it.
Furk Labour need to sort this out as the Gov is going to get such a easy ride.
TBH if the Labour leadership gets really messy May should call for an GE.
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Bloody atrocious result.
Even if you are a committed supporter of Trident, the fact that they voted and agreed on something that has not been properly costed is mental. Eurofighter's first estimate was £7bn and it ended up being £23bn. God knows how much this will end up costing.
Very interesting polling:
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9736
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9737
Corbyn ahead of Eagle/Smith by about 20 points in the membership.
Also that Corbyn would do better than Eagle/Smith against May, but whoever it is will have a tough time. Suggesting what I have thought for a while: the problem isn't Corbyn, it's Labour.
Even if you are a committed supporter of Trident, the fact that they voted and agreed on something that has not been properly costed is mental. Eurofighter's first estimate was £7bn and it ended up being £23bn. God knows how much this will end up costing.
Very interesting polling:
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9736
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9737
Corbyn ahead of Eagle/Smith by about 20 points in the membership.
Also that Corbyn would do better than Eagle/Smith against May, but whoever it is will have a tough time. Suggesting what I have thought for a while: the problem isn't Corbyn, it's Labour.
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Yeah. Labour as a whole is fcuked and it will take something, or someone, remarkable to change the course. So far the closest we've come to that is David Cameron.
Which isn't to say there's not a whole lot of sub-problems.
Which isn't to say there's not a whole lot of sub-problems.
Totally agree!
The Trident is Labour Party policy and, more importantly, supported by the Unions as it means jobs.....
It's no surprise Labour are in a mess. The party membership voted in someone who's opinions they liked but lacked any leadership qualities. It's MPs know they are ineffective as an opposition party and rightly want rid particularly after the shambles of Corbyns remain campaign.
As for Trident I'm still not sure why we need something that even in a real nuclear war we probably wouldn't use.
As for Trident I'm still not sure why we need something that even in a real nuclear war we probably wouldn't use.
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My other issue with Trident is I've never seen anyou evidence that it really deters anything that our conventional armament doesn't do already. That's a tough sell on me.
I understand in the cold war MAD essentially stopped Russia and USA going all out si had proxy ward instead but does it stop anyone attacking us now?
The Russians are probably our biggest threat in terms of capability and I suspect in an attack scenario they'd be more interested in their old sphere of influence than us.
Iran and North Korea aren't really interested in us that way.
It's proven pretty much useless against Islamic Fundamentalism.
Greenpeace (an organisation I rarely agree with) did a funny stunt where they took the Leave bus and replaced the wording with 21.8 billion on Trident.
It's just an amount I think we can spend better evenow if it all went back into the defence sector. Hell more conventional submarines are probably better value for money...yup can buy us over 20 Astute class submarines (we have 6 currently). Okay their sea to air armament isn't great but you could probably buy submarines with better capabilities on that front but not have weapons that kill thousands of people but can cause massive destruction to military targets and civilian military production facilities.
I understand in the cold war MAD essentially stopped Russia and USA going all out si had proxy ward instead but does it stop anyone attacking us now?
The Russians are probably our biggest threat in terms of capability and I suspect in an attack scenario they'd be more interested in their old sphere of influence than us.
Iran and North Korea aren't really interested in us that way.
It's proven pretty much useless against Islamic Fundamentalism.
Greenpeace (an organisation I rarely agree with) did a funny stunt where they took the Leave bus and replaced the wording with 21.8 billion on Trident.
It's just an amount I think we can spend better evenow if it all went back into the defence sector. Hell more conventional submarines are probably better value for money...yup can buy us over 20 Astute class submarines (we have 6 currently). Okay their sea to air armament isn't great but you could probably buy submarines with better capabilities on that front but not have weapons that kill thousands of people but can cause massive destruction to military targets and civilian military production facilities.
The problem with trident is it will never ever be used. Even if Russia start launching ICBMs at little old Britain would anyone really sanction MAD? No never happen. We could spend it on a new assault rifle as the SA80 has always been a heap of utter ****. But defense procurement has always been a funny business.
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If you mug someone by pointing a gun at them, no one would say you didn't use the gun because you didn't fire it, they'd say it was used to intimidate.
Trident is the same. It exists for 'intimidating' people in diplomatic meetings. Intimidating isn't the right word, but its not completely wrong either.
Whether its an effective diplomatic tool in this current world is a different question, but that should be the question, not would we use it if diplomacy failed.
Trident is the same. It exists for 'intimidating' people in diplomatic meetings. Intimidating isn't the right word, but its not completely wrong either.
Whether its an effective diplomatic tool in this current world is a different question, but that should be the question, not would we use it if diplomacy failed.
The 'fixed' versions (A2 variants) are apparently far more reliable than comparable guns. Plus it's fairly accurate I don't think (I could be wrong) many currently serving have much to complain about them now with regards to their other kit. The originals were a sack of **** though shame we couldn't get it right the first time on something so basic for testing.
But yeah there's far much better we can do on procurement. A lot of the problems we come across is sheer amount of middle management between myself and the end user. I'd give my right leg to have a week with a bunch of people who actually use the product but instead of them telling me what they want me observing them using it and actually coming up with better solutions in conjunction with them. Never give the customer what they ask for they probably don't know what is actually capable of the software it's far better for them to explain the problem, show you and you with them to come up with solution.
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Here is real point with sheer cost of the thing it has to be a point of difference. When factored into everything we do have has anyone ever not or stopped attacking us because of Trident? Will they ever do that?
But yeah there's far much better we can do on procurement. A lot of the problems we come across is sheer amount of middle management between myself and the end user. I'd give my right leg to have a week with a bunch of people who actually use the product but instead of them telling me what they want me observing them using it and actually coming up with better solutions in conjunction with them. Never give the customer what they ask for they probably don't know what is actually capable of the software it's far better for them to explain the problem, show you and you with them to come up with solution.
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This is pretty much my question does it actually deter people, in negotiations do people think **** they've nuclear weapons better do what they say.
Here is real point with sheer cost of the thing it has to be a point of difference. When factored into everything we do have has anyone ever not or stopped attacking us because of Trident? Will they ever do that?
Angela Eagle pulls out of the Labour leadership race. Have to say she is now finishes in politics. Corbyn will win again, easily
As I've said before her entire job was to test the labour election legal framework. Job done she's now used goods and a sacrificial lamb to the cause.
Owen Smith is now up as the next one as a 'unity' candidate who has stepped up from the shadows but never really one of Labour big hitters (they are on the sidelines only willing to take on a no-Corbyn ticket). He'll loose then it's party split most likely to what extent nobody really knows.
The 'fixed' versions (A2 variants) are apparently far more reliable than comparable guns. Plus it's fairly accurate I don't think (I could be wrong) many currently serving have much to complain about them now with regards to their other kit. The originals were a sack of **** though shame we couldn't get it right the first time on something so basic for testing.
But yeah there's far much better we can do on procurement. A lot of the problems we come across is sheer amount of middle management between myself and the end user. I'd give my right leg to have a week with a bunch of people who actually use the product but instead of them telling me what they want me observing them using it and actually coming up with better solutions in conjunction with them. Never give the customer what they ask for they probably don't know what is actually capable of the software it's far better for them to explain the problem, show you and you with them to come up with solution.
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This is pretty much my question does it actually deter people, in negotiations do people think **** they've nuclear weapons better do what they say.
Here is real point with sheer cost of the thing it has to be a point of difference. When factored into everything we do have has anyone ever not or stopped attacking us because of Trident? Will they ever do that?
You still cannot fire the thing left handed but I confess the A2 came in after I left so it may have improved.
Regards what peat said. It didn't stop Argentina invading the Falklands, it didn't stop 7/7, or the IRA or the very large Iranian incursion into southern Iraq etc etc
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A2 is completely different internally (H&K completely re-designed it from the original), and it's fine.
They're pretty different on the outside by this point too... no SUSAT's, RIS rails and the like....
They're pretty different on the outside by this point too... no SUSAT's, RIS rails and the like....
SUSATs on both versions.
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Nope, they can't afford to replace/fix them, so they are being replaced with Acogs and Elcans.
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