A Political Thread

[Tony Manx]

Don't agree with that petition. But I do wonder whether it is democratically right to bring the UK out of the EU 2+ years from now, when the mood of the nation may be completely different. There are already people coming out saying they regret their vote, especially after the pound dropping to a 30 year low.

If it looks like 55+% of people decide, after the negotiation period, that the price is too high, should there not be another referendum?

But as soon as the UK passes the necessary legislation to enable the protocols under Clause 50 of the treaty to leave, and maybe actually when they formally tell the EU, they have left the EU - not at the end of the negotiating period which can last UP to two years?

 

[Which Tyler]

Interesting petition
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Even though I hate the result we've been given; and have seen enough stories out there to think that the result may not even be representative of those who voted (idiots wanting to remain but not understanding how voting works, or only educating themselves after the event). However, this petition goes too far, and is too late.
I've said ahead of this referendum, the Scottish one and the voting system one - if it's important enough to deserve a referendum, then it's important enough to need a significant majority. Personally, I'd favour 50%+1 of those eligible to vote; or 60% of the actual vote (whichever is lower). Demanding 75% turnout means that no vote would ever actually count.

Anyway - expecting to see this flag in a couple of hours.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Did anyone else see Lohan's Twitter account during the vote.

Lol

 

[Groundhog]

Boris Johnson's dad called Tories Irish Bog Rats on national TV. Ohhhhh I imagine he's gonna regret that one.

 

[j'nuh]

I had a realisation that it's all Sue's fault.

The bigoted woman cost Labour the election in 2010.

Tories took over, did the whole austerity thing.

Austerity caused pain, people lashed out at foreigners.

Brexit.

God damn it Sue.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Still getting my head round Brexit and why 17 million plus voted to leave.

This BBC article helps explain why UK has always had an uneasy relationship with Europe. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36620426

By the end of my time based in Brussels I was convinced that I had understood the key difference. To many in the UK being part of the EU was a hard-headed economic relationship, about free markets, selling and buying stuff. It was a sort of second best, a consolation prize after the loss of empire, but not one that had a similar place in patriots' hearts.

But for nearly all the other countries it was a refuge. It was a home they were constructing as a bulwark against history, against horror.

Germany was fleeing its role in spreading death and destruction to every corner of the continent, fleeing its own political ambitions. France was running away from defeat and occupation, from humiliation and powerlessness.
So were many other countries. Greece, Portugal and Spain found refuge - in an imagined future - from the real past of right-wing dictatorships. The countries of the East were replacing communist tyranny with a new attempt to create peace and democracy.

The thought that war could once again ravage a continent, so risible to David Cameron's detractors, do not seem so funny to many on the continent.

For many Britons, World War Two was our finest hour, standing alone, and putting those Europeans to shame, withstanding Hitler and beating him. Some realised the Russians and the Americans helped a little bit too. But we were still better than the rest of the Quislings and dictators.

The European Union, for all its bureaucracy, is a deeply romantic project, a desire to forge something new, something different. A new relationship binding nation states in a way that will exorcise forever the ghosts of the inglorious past.

I realised something else during my time based in Brussels. The old caricature of those who were opposed to the EU was less and less true. They didn't base their arguments on dislike of foreigners. They professed to love Europe's variety and embraced its language and culture. It was the organisation they disliked.
Many of the political elites were snobby about these opponents, and felt the questions they were raising were illegitimate. They didn't engage with the argument but swept it under the carpet, turned a blind eye and hoped they wouldn't be heard.

But it is undoubtedly true the UK's immigration debate and the Greek crisis are so heated because people don't feel the same connection, the same (often limited) desire to help people from other European nations, as they do those they define as their own.

That, not red tape or some ill-defined responsiveness, is the EU's central problem. It will have to start recognising it and wrestling with it rather than resenting it and ignoring it, if it wants to survive.

 

[j'nuh]

That sounds accurate.

It's a tale of two generations. The generation that grew up in a homogeneous society and the generation that grew up in a multicultural and diverse society.

And unfortunately, the major consequences of leaving are borne by those who did not vote for it; young people. The older generations continue to pile the misery onto my own. But they continue to think they are doing us a favour, in the most self-congratulating, pretentious way possible.

 

[Which Tyler]

Well said

 

[Bada-Bing!]

That sounds accurate.

It's a tale of two generations. The generation that grew up in a homogeneous society and the generation that grew up in a multicultural and diverse society.

And unfortunately, the major consequences of leaving are borne by those who did not vote for it; young people. The older generations continue to pile the misery onto my own. But they continue to think they are doing us a favour, in the most self-congratulating, pretentious way possible.

That's a problem of younger voter engagement. 18-24 year olds just don't turn out in enough numbers to vote; the over 55s do turn out and vote because the older you get the more value you put on your vote. It's been true of so many elections in the past.

[Edit] just read below on the BBC website which highlights the big difference in last year's General election between the over 65s turning up to vote compared to 18-34s.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36574526

It is a matter of fact that the older you are, the more likely you are to make the effort to vote - 78% of those 65 or over voted in the 2015 election, compared with 43% of 18-24 year olds and 54% of 25-34 year olds.

Despite the last minute rush to register - which saw 2.6 million people sign up, many of them younger voters, between 15 May and the extended deadline of 9 June - the breakdown may not be radically different this time.

And below for full breakdown of voting by age in last general election. Over 55s and 65s turnout was 77% and 78% respectively compared to 18-24 (43%) and 25-34 (54%). There's an argument that we should go the Australian way and fine those who are eligible if they don't vote. This vote was just too important and is going to have such massive repercussions going forward.

https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3575/How-Britain-voted-in-2015.aspx

 

[ncurd]

The level of backtracking by leave campaign politicians is quite sickening.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...icid=maing-grid7|uk|dl2|sec1_lnk2&pLid=473295

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Seen a few articles of quotes from people who are now regretting voting leave because they were lied to - it'd be funny if it wasn't so depressing.
Just seen this on Reddit, think it's from an article in the Guardian, the whole thing's a **** show.

If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

A few weeks back I was going to vote leave, not because I wanted the UK to leave, but because I wanted major EU reform and I thought this was the best way my voice for change could be heard. I changed my mind in the a couple of weeks before the vote because the leave campaign did not present a case for what would happen post exit and a vote for leave was a vote for uncertainty. Never it my wildest dreams did I think that the vote would turn out the way it did. Now the uncertainty is the pretty depressing. I do think a lot of people voted leave with their hearts and now reality is setting in there is now regret as they just did not think of the consequences through properly.

 

[Bee]

A few weeks back I was going to vote leave, not because I wanted the UK to leave, but because I wanted major EU reform and I thought this was the best way my voice for change could be heard. I changed my mind in the a couple of weeks before the vote because the leave campaign did not present a case for what would happen post exit and a vote for leave was a vote for uncertainty. Never it my wildest dreams did I think that the vote would turn out the way it did. Now the uncertainty is the pretty depressing. I do think a lot of people voted leave with their hearts and now reality is setting in there is now regret as they just did not think of the consequences through properly.

Welcome to democracy...

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Welcome to democracy...

 

[ncurd]

Olyy honestly that article is one huge remain "I told you so." I hope to God it turns out to be truth I'd **** myself laughing.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Welcome to democracy...

Seriously though this is why you don't have referendums on such important issues like this. There are a lot of people who don't have a f**cking clue what they are voting for. And worst still people who are eligible who don't even bother to turn up to vote: like 18-34 year olds who this vote is going to affect the most; where only around 50% bother to turn up.

 

[ncurd]

Aye this Referendum has highlighted to me why indirect democracy is so much better the direct democracy.

Now if other would actually pay attention in general elections and demand fairer votes the system might actually work for a change....fat chance of it happening.

 

[Tony Manx]

Seriously though this is why you don't have referendums on such important issues like this. There are a lot of people who don't have a f**cking clue what they are voting for. And worst still people who are eligible who don't even bother to turn up to vote: like 18-34 year olds who this vote is going to affect the most; where only around 50% bother to turn up.

Amazing. The people have spoken yet the losers will not accept it!!

Sure some people do not understand what they have voted for but that is the case on both sides!

Sure a lot of people did not vote when they could have but that was the case on both sides!

The reasoning that is prevalent in the insinuation that the only reason that the Leave voters voted as they did is because they could not have understood what they are doing is pure elitism! That is something the EU masters are good at - indeed probably the only thing!!

Also, that people are using the over reaction of the immediate aftermath of a shock result as some sort of "proof" that a Leave vote has to be wrong.....most (all!!) of the "results" of an OUT vote were well laid out by Remain in the preamble to the Referendum!

Who did not know that Scotland would not accept a Leave vote? Although how they are going to finance an out of control health and social security budget without London or EU money is debatable! As is the miscomprehension that they can somehow stay in when Britain exits - the best they can hope for is a successful application some years down the road!

http://dailym.ai/28UHQx3

Let us judge the validity and sense of the decision after many months, even years, rather than hours - you may be right but it is too early.

I can see why the Remain camp voted as they did!

This is typical EU detached rulers' behaviour - "never accept the will of the people if it conflicts with our own beliefs". Vis, Ireland's NO in Lisbon referendum resulting in a second running and their pouring resources in to propaganda to get the result they want - although that miserably failed here!!

Talking about indirect Democracy..........

 

[Bee]

Amazing. The people have spoken yet the losers will not accept it!!

Sure some people do not understand what they have voted for but that is the case on both sides!

Sure a lot of people did not vote when they could have but that was the case on both sides!

The reasoning that is prevalent in the insinuation that the only reason that the Leave voters voted as they did is because they could not have understood what they are doing is pure elitism! That is something the EU masters are good at - indeed probably the only thing!!

Also, that people are using the over reaction of the immediate aftermath of a shock result as some sort of "proof" that a Leave vote has to be wrong.....most (all!!) of the "results" of an OUT vote were well laid out by Remain in the preamble to the Referendum!

Who did not know that Scotland would not accept a Leave vote? Although how they are going to finance an out of control health and social security budget without London or EU money is debatable! As is the miscomprehension that they can somehow stay in when Britain exits - the best they can hope for is a successful application some years down the road!

http://dailym.ai/28UHQx3

Let us judge the validity and sense of the decision after many months, even years, rather than hours - you may be right but it is too early.

I can see why the Remain camp voted as they did!

This is typical EU detached rulers' behaviour - "never accept the will of the people if it conflicts with our own beliefs". Vis, Ireland's NO in Lisbon referendum resulting in a second running and their pouring resources in to propaganda to get the result they want - although that miserably failed here!!

Talking about indirect Democracy..........

Would you let a plumber, furniture salesman, pilot and bouncer decide how to do your heart surgery best ?

 

[Tony Manx]

Would you let a plumber, furniture salesman, pilot and bouncer decide how to do your heart surgery best ?

There you go....elitism!