A Political Thread

[TRF_Olyy]

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1202670854410297344?s=19

 

[User1245]

Er no we haven't, nobody here has defended Trudeau's actions. Fewer have branded him a racist because his actions recently have indicated he is anything but a racist. If anything people such as yourself on the right complain that he is always apologising and too PC, you can't have it both ways (although as this thread is pointing out, you seem to like to try.) Ultimately it looked like a stupid action from when he was much younger and not something that is part of a repeated trend. Was it wrong? Yes. Was it stupid? Yes. Was it racist? Yes. Do I think Trudeau now is a racist for an apparently isolated incident years ago? No.

No politician on the right would get close to that benefit of the doubt? Excuse me? Are you walking around with your eyes and ears closed? Just look at the right wing and their base and see just how many actions they excuse. We aren't even talking racist comments now, we are talking about getting the benefit of the doubt for criminal activity so don't give that complete bullshit. You are proof of the massive double standard in that you aren't even aware of the massive free rein your own side gives right wing politicians.

Let's go through a list of things the right wing have claimed was fine:

Russian election rigging
Trumps sexist talk
Attacks on the media
Physical attacks on people at Trump rallies
Campaign finance fraud
Charity fraud
Cheating on your wife whilst she died of cancer
Separating children from their parents
Entrapment and false imprisonment
Stacking the supreme court
Lying under oath
Falsely claiming Ukraine interfered in the elections
Multiple investigations into Benghazi
Threatening to lock up political opponents
Threatening violence against political opponents
Dismissing the threat of white supremacists
Various white supremacist terrorist actions
Stacking the supreme court
Sexual abuse
Abusing gold star families
Abusing a dead senator and war veteran
Double standard with the amount of golfing
Double standards with use of executive orders
Blocking giving testimony to the legal process of impeachment
Witness harassment
Offering pardons to criminal acquaintances
Interfering in the elections of allies
Ruining relations with said allies
Destroying the 2 state solution between Israel and Palestine
Rigging state elections
Using dodgy voting machines
MadM gerrymandering
Voter suppression reactive

Let's add stuff from the uk
Breaching campaign finance with brexit
Writing false claims on the side of a bus
Having 2 transfers of pm after whining about it under Blair and brown
Posing as fact centersc
Dodging debate and media scrutiny
Not turning up to international events
Lying about his relations
Man handling an opposition member on camera
Racist comments he had not apologised for
A false web page for the Labour manifesto

All of this many of the right have turned a blind eye too so how the hell can you sit there and claim there is no double standard!? Had anyone in the left got away with all that, or even a fraction!?

Need I ******* go on!?

Oh and of course

Sean Spicer lying about the inauguration crowd size despite being proven wrong
Kellyanne Conway "alternative facts"
The entire "fake news" thing
The Republican opposition to Ilhan Omar saying she should be hanged
The death threats to various Democrats
The farcical press briefings with Sarah Sanders, which were drastically reduced
Russian media being allowed into a meeting between the president and Russians but no US media allowed
Russian media being given access to parts of the WH that are off limits normally
Trump giving Putin state secrets
Trump declassifying information at will
Trump sabotaging the climate change accords
Trump sabotaging the Iranian nuclear deal

I mean bloody hell, the man still has roughly 50% approval and you want to claim the right wing aren't applying a double standard!? Look at how they treated Obama and look at what Trump has done in comparison. How in God's name can you claim they are being held to the same standard!? Can you point to things Obama did that even come close to what Trump and the right wing have done recently? Shouldn't the fact the list is so long I even forgot bits from the earlier days be a massive bloody clue?

Oh and dismantling the healthcare arrangements and giving a massive tax break to the wealthiest whilst raising taxes on the poorest and ballooning the deficit (remember when that was a problem when Obama was doing it? Nope?)

And Trump demanding Obama's birth certificate
Trump refusing to release his tax returns

FFS man. This was just all off the top of my head! I haven't even bothered googling anything yet. There's likely still more I've forgotten.

Okay, but tell me what you really think...

Where do I start with the very long meandering unhinged list? Some are for Trump, some are for Republicans, some I have no clue who they apply to, some are baseless. What do you want me to do with that list? Comment on each one? Pick and choose which suit my argue best?

How about you pick your top 5 things that has you convinced that Trump is prime evil? Or if you wish, what the conservative right has done since 2016, since the era of Trump is the context we're discussing.

In response, I'll post are 5 problematic things Saint Obama did or what the liberal left has done during the same period Trump period.

Along with those, if their in-group held them accountable for their actions. Because as you said: The left and the right really have a different set of standards they hold their leader and supporters to.
How are we measuring this? Voting results? Trending Twitter hashtags? Articles from news organisations who've aligned themselves to a "side"?

I'll give you a hint how it will end though... it'll just be a *** for tat with both sides coming out with poor ethical and immoral actions. And that's my point, both sides are human with biases and very much appear to have dogmatic ideologies, and overlook what their side does and emphasize what the other side does.
That has been my main point the entire time.

Ultimately it looked like a stupid action from when he was much younger and not something that is part of a repeated trend. Was it wrong? Yes. Was it stupid? Yes. Was it racist? Yes. Do I think Trudeau now is a racist for an apparently isolated incident years ago? No.

It was a trend, their are 3 different occasions with photographic evidence of him blacking himself up. Of those 3 record instances, the last we know of was when he was 30 years old. He has been unable to confirm if he did more than just these 3 times.
Does this change your perspective on the situation?

 

[User1245]

You've failed on at least two levels,

On a very basic level you haven't provided an example where someone on the left was held to a lower standard than someone on the right. You just provided an example of someone on the 'left' being in the wrong where is the person on the 'right' being condemned for similar histories and similar position of power?

You claim bias (separate from standards) to why some are pointed out but not others but when pointed out that your example that the Canadian Prime Minister is of a global presence lesser then the President of the USA therefore gets less scrutiny overall you refuse to even engage with it.


Your point isn't even close to proven except you want to claim victory where there is none.

The left doesn't apply universal standards and ethics due to it's biases. Is that so unbelievable?

To my point again:

On your 'further evidence', I can find tons of recent examples where the like of Johnson and Trump have shown sympathy towards racism and racists. Can you find further evidence of 'Trudeau' being a racist or sympathising with those views?

Please provide 3 pieces of credible evidence that Trump has shown "sympathy towards racism and racists" or better yet something he has actually done which requires no interpretation. Not those "dog-whistles" the media is always on about. I can think for myself without them telling me how I should interpret things. You need 3 to match the 3 objective ones we already have for Trudeau. There also lots of evidence that Trump is not racist because of the stuff he has done directly for the black community.

I don't know Johnson at all BTW.

If you look back on this thread I have called Trump narcissistic and arrogant. I think we can agree on that. It's the mischaracterization when it suits an agenda that I'm on about, and then the subsequent suspension of the standards embedded in these mischaracterizations when it doesn't suit. That is what makes people who have never been "on his side" take his side. The double standards.

Why do you think movements like #walkaway exist? Because of the hypocrisy of the left. There are 300+ videos of people saying so.

 

[User1245]

Will "the left" condemn Greta Thunberg for misleading 2 million school children in taking part of the 'School strike for the climate' to further a neo-Marxist political agenda?

That action must be powerful and wide-ranging. After all, the climate crisis is not just about the environment. It is a crisis of human rights, of justice, and of political will. Colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression have created and fueled it. We need to dismantle them all. Our political leaders can no longer shirk their responsibilities.

https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...erence-madrid-by-greta-thunberg-et-al-2019-11

Not a peep from the media a week after it was published. I guess everybody agrees these "systems of oppression" to be dismantled for stop climate change?

Not holding my breath as the left have a long history of using children to further their agenda.

EDIT: Just found this post

Is anyone else pretty damn disturbed by the Thonberg thing?



The amount of people trying to spin a genuine passion as some sort of manipulative left wing BS, is disgusting. Going after her parents.
(Also reminded me why I hate a certain rugby podcast so damn much).


I guess I shouldn't be surprised we live in a world where Climate change is still viewed as a political alignment issue rather than the crisis it is.

@TRF_Olyy @Which Tyler @Gavin
You guys gave this post a thumbs up. What are your thoughts on the article above that Greta co-authored?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't have time to read the whole thing properly but I skimmed it and see no issue.

I have a degree in environmental biology so climate change is something I'm passionate about though.

 

[User1245]

Don't have time to read the whole thing properly but I skimmed it and see no issue.

I have a degree in environmental biology so climate change is something I'm passionate about though.

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Tigs Man said:

Is anyone else pretty damn disturbed by the Thonberg thing?

The amount of people trying to spin a genuine passion as some sort of manipulative left wing BS, is disgusting. Going after her parents.
(Also reminded me why I hate a certain rugby podcast so damn much).

I guess I shouldn't be surprised we live in a world where Climate change is still viewed as a political alignment issue rather than the crisis it is.

To which you gave a thumbs up in agreement.

Then Greta wrote this:

That action must be powerful and wide-ranging. After all, the climate crisis is not just about the environment. It is a crisis of human rights, of justice, and of political will. Colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression have created and fueled it. We need to dismantle them all. Our political leaders can no longer shirk their responsibilities.

I've bolded the important part. This that a genuine passion for the environment or is it advocacy for a political ideology?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think you're misunderstanding Tigs comment, he's not saying she's not left wing but that the right wing nut jobs are saying she's an actor being fed lines and pushed by the left, which is absurd
These are her views not that of some global illuminati.

IRT his last point I guess that was wrong as she's now using the climate change push to push for more change, but that's hardly a bad thing and I think the youth should be applauded for pointing out and wanting to change the injustice in the world, not ridiculed and threatened.

 

[ncurd]

Please provide 3 pieces of credible evidence that Trump has shown "sympathy towards racism and racists" or better yet something he has actually done which requires no interpretation.

Only 3?

Man your your ******* idiot or actually don't read the news.

There's the times he called immigrants rapists.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/04/06/politics/trump-mexico-rapists/index.html

The time in Charlottesville he referred to white supremacists as very fine people after one of them had deliberately driven into a crown of people and murdered someone.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnew...eople-comments-calls-robert/story?id=62653478

Oh yeah and let's not forget he was a huge proponent of birtherism.

Those are all within the last decade, some of which he's repeated and defended.

And there's more than that.

Here's a comprehensive article
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/588067/

Sorry by trying to claim Trump at best hasn't cosied up to racists you've shown yourself up as a complete and utter idiot.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Okay, but tell me what you really think...

Where do I start with the very long meandering unhinged list? Some are for Trump, some are for Republicans, some I have no clue who they apply to, some are baseless. What do you want me to do with that list? Comment on each one? Pick and choose which suit my argue best?

How about you pick your top 5 things that has you convinced that Trump is prime evil? Or if you wish, what the conservative right has done since 2016, since the era of Trump is the context we're discussing.

In response, I'll post are 5 problematic things Saint Obama did or what the liberal left has done during the same period Trump period.

Along with those, if their in-group held them accountable for their actions. Because as you said: The left and the right really have a different set of standards they hold their leader and supporters to.
How are we measuring this? Voting results? Trending Twitter hashtags? Articles from news organisations who've aligned themselves to a "side"?

I'll give you a hint how it will end though... it'll just be a *** for tat with both sides coming out with poor ethical and immoral actions. And that's my point, both sides are human with biases and very much appear to have dogmatic ideologies, and overlook what their side does and emphasize what the other side does.
That has been my main point the entire time.



It was a trend, their are 3 different occasions with photographic evidence of him blacking himself up. Of those 3 record instances, the last we know of was when he was 30 years old. He has been unable to confirm if he did more than just these 3 times.
Does this change your perspective on the situation?

It's quite telling that you were utterly incapable of addressing even one of the points. Yes I do expect you to at least try considering that was purely from memory and I didn't even have to look those up, I could find even more if I tried. The fact the list is that long having nothing to you dasa a lot. Like all Trumpers is just deny deny deny.

Here's a challenge, try showing a shred of integrity for a change, although I understand such a concept is currently alien to those in the right. Lie and deny is how the right in the Western world is operating now and people will get fed up of such moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Funny that, I think you guys proved my point perfectly.

Not one person even came close to branding Trudeau as racist. All responses were along the lines of he made a silly mistake because of his privileged upbringing and he was just young at the time (he was 30 in one instance). This from a guy who did black face 3 times, one of those with something stuffed down his pants. But he apologized so let's move on.

No politician even close to right leaning would get the same kind of benefit of the doubt like that. Nope, something like this would only serve as further evidence that they are in fact an irredeemable racist. Apologizing would just be used against them. They know the left have rigged the game.

So no, the left and right don't have different standards. Everybody looks over things their leaders do and look after their own side. Hence you proved my point.


Dude, are you a troll? Seriously...

The only thing close to factual in your post is the name of the political party, and you even got that wrong. Democratic Alliance, not National Alliance.
Try reading more than just news headlines.

Way to engage with a topic that doesn't fit in with your personal worldview. You have no observations on the matter? An astute political manoeuvre increasing the chances of a brighter future for South Africa?

And excuse me for getting the name confused with the post fascist Italian political party. I used to have to write essays on those muppets.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Am I the only one who's a bit uneasy about Thunberg?

Not saying her message is bad, far from it, and it's great that she cares so much. But she's a 16 year old with Aspergers and the world stage isn't their natural habitat. I hope her family are properly looking out for her interests behind the scenes. She's at a tricky enough age as it is before you start thinking about these additional pressures.

 

[Which Tyler]

Well, posted my vote off today.
I've not been impressed by the Lib Dems this campaign, but (apparently) they've got the best chance of beating our ERG twatopotamus, so they got my vote.

https://tactical.vote/compare?

 

[die_mole]

as much as I'd love to keep the current power structure while saving the environment, it's pretty much impossible.

Environmental law is my study focus (studies environmental economics in undergrad) and I plan on being an environmental lawyer, it's probably the only part of international politics i'm pretty confident talking about.

There aren't any neoliberal solutions to the greenhouse gas crisis. Milton Friedman isn't gonna save anyone. There may be some bandaids but the market won't be able to do all the work that is necessary. I'd love to see it, but I'm resigned to the fact that it's impossible. Environmental protection is inherently left-wing cause there are no right-wing solutions. And if you don't think that the misuse of our resources has any connection to colonialism and racism, well you really just don't care.

Am I the only one who's a bit uneasy about Thunberg?

Not saying her message is bad, far from it, and it's great that she cares so much. But she's a 16 year old with Aspergers and the world stage isn't their natural habitat. I hope her family are properly looking out for her interests behind the scenes. She's at a tricky enough age as it is before you start thinking about these additional pressures.

uneasy, no. She's going to have a tough time in social situations anyway and this appears to make her really happy. Her and her family were dealt a rough hand but I think they are doing the best they can with it. Lucky for them they were in a position to give up a lot of things to support her unconditionally.

Now do I think she helps the environmental issue? No.

 

[bertiec]

Cockwomble on BBC1 right now shamelessly playing politics and blaming Corbyn and Labour for the London Bridge attack and ignoring the question about the Tories having been in power for the past 10 years.

what relevence has that when the the law that let the prat out was passed under labour?

 

[bertiec]

Richard Tice, chairman of the Brexit party, is present on the BBC1 debate tonight. Can't wait to see him get torn a new one

plenty new ones in the red quarter.

 

[bertiec]

Just a quickie. The problems I see are many fold. China, N/Korea, Pakistan etc all the growing powers use fossil fuel in increasing amounts to drive thier economies into the world markets. How can the !st world nations influence their not so green future? If we are going to drive battery cars where is the cobalt coming from? Dont get me wrong, something must be done, just how?

 

[die_mole]

Just a quickie. The problems I see are many fold. China, N/Korea, Pakistan etc all the growing powers use fossil fuel in increasing amounts to drive thier economies into the world markets. How can the !st world nations influence their not so green future? If we are going to drive battery cars where is the cobalt coming from? Dont get me wrong, something must be done, just how?

There are agreements in place that they will peak their ghgs (China at least has this agreement). Once they reach that level they will implement our strategies to reduce their emissions.
I don't particularly like but it's a complicated problem.

 

[ncurd]

Well, posted my vote off today.
I've not been impressed by the Lib Dems this campaign, but (apparently) they've got the best chance of beating our ERG twatopotamus, so they got my vote.

https://tactical.vote/compare?

Sadly we have no chance of beating him, it would require everyone to vote for one candidate to oppose him. We'd need an electoral pact to do so and removal of FPTP and even then we are likely still ducked.

I do think the mid-campaign switch has been good for the LD's. And Swinson appears far more comfortable than she did going on about 'fantasy' results if she got a majority, ended up PM and perpetually attacking Corbyn. They are getting bogged in their proposed Gender Recognition Act which is complex and prehaps there needs to be more debate on but the debate is worth having rather than ignoring it. Just for clarity the debate is on women and their required safe spaces and men posing as women to target women. Personally I think men inclined to do that will target women regardless but dismissing people by calling them TERFs doesn't endear them to you. Need to engage and discuss these things. Getting embroiled in a debate during an election isn't helpful.

 

[User1245]

Way to engage with a topic that doesn't fit in with your personal worldview. You have no observations on the matter? An astute political manoeuvre increasing the chances of a brighter future for South Africa?

And excuse me for getting the name confused with the post fascist Italian political party. I used to have to write essays on those muppets.

I have no interest in discussing South African politics with you. I engaged on this thread for a specific reason and this doesn't form part of it.

 

[User1245]

It's quite telling that you were utterly incapable of addressing even one of the points. Yes I do expect you to at least try considering that was purely from memory and I didn't even have to look those up, I could find even more if I tried. The fact the list is that long having nothing to you dasa a lot. Like all Trumpers is just deny deny deny.

Here's a challenge, try showing a shred of integrity for a change, although I understand such a concept is currently alien to those in the right. Lie and deny is how the right in the Western world is operating now and people will get fed up of such moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

It's quite telling that you don't want to give me a coherent list but decide to insult me instead. For goodness sake your list started with "Russian election rigging". Really? That's the first thing you'd list?

I've put the debate in your favour. Choose your 3 worst from the right and I'll reply with my worst 3 from the left, and then we can discuss how the left holds itself to higher ethical and moral standards (I've revised it from 5 to 3 because I'm replying to a few people and because you've decided to insult me instead of responding to a reasonable request, therefore wasting time).

But it seems you'd much rather sling **** and insult. What have I denied, denied, denied? How am I a "Trumper"? I've already said I think he is arrogant and narcissistic. Is it because I don't think he is the devil reincarnated and the people slinging **** at him are just as bad? I literally can't vote for the guy. I'm also an atheist through and through so trust me I have issues with the right, so I don't fall neatly into the category you'd like me to.
You'll see in my reply to ncurd coming soon that I actually think he has said bad things that I can't get behind and will criticize.

And I'll tell you what people are getting fed up with: the left's tendency to insult and shout down rather than to have a discussion. Then to grandstand and virtue signal all while they have equally bad or worse ethics as the very same people they paint as pure evil.
All gloves are off to them now. Fake claims and using children to further their means is fair game because they are so convinced that their dogmatic beliefs are true, so it's all justified.

Live in the echo chamber for all I care, I'm not here to change anybody's politics. But don't act like somebody holding up the mirror to the left's actions is the most egregious thing to do. I think you don't want me to hold the mirror up to what the left have been doing because then it's in your face and would require you to take a stance.

Just like how Greta's latest article is an inconvenient truth that: yes, she has a political agenda and yes, she used millions of children to further it unbeknownst to them. 99% of those kids are there to save animals by reducing fossil fuel usage.
But it's okay allow adults involved to knowingly mislead them because [insert justification here], so the left won't hold anybody responsible for the clearly misleading millions of children. They'll make that decision for the kids because what do they know, they're just kids. Except Greta, everybody should listen to her. The adults involved here have a lot to answer for.

My hope is that the left, in general, step back and look at the sick game they are letting their side play. Outcome overrides intent, always.