All Black new cap contenders

[nickdnz]

Wouldn't that just mean he's the worst winger in the competition for doing that then? Surely there are many other speedsters being used in that same context and don't just disrupt, but actually connect with their tackles. It's plausible reasoning to a degree; he wasn't a tackling aficionado on the stats to begin with. But even by Savea's own standards, he's about 17 percent down on his career average.

Since Chris Boyd took over and started doing kick chases...which has worked very well. That supports my point rather than refutes it.

It doesn't mean he's the worst defensive winger in the competition at all. If he doesn't make a tackle but the ball is knocked on, or partially makes a tackle in time for the rest of the defensive line to move up - then he's doing exactly what they want him to do.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice for every run up and chase to be a great connecting tackle, but it's a very tough ask.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

isn't chasing the up and under or box kick what most wingers do? do you mean they do it more on his wing than the other? or they do it more than other teams?....is Jane much better? he must be chasing the ones on his side

 

[austingtir]

A kaino and Akira Ioane 6 and 8 combination is getting more appealing with every game I see this guy play. He's really really good. Almost so good I think Hansen is going to have to drop Luatua to make room for him!

 

[MotherRucker1]

Not sure where to put this but here we go. I've previously defended Dagg earlier in the season because I felt his form was a step up (which seems a long time ago now given his injury), and he had a decent All Blacks tour last year. That's not a diss towards Ben Smith though. It's not even really a huge compliment to Dagg - he just had a few games where he did well, and towards the latter part of 2014 he looked fairly good too in some areas. Clearly Smith has always been a great player, and heres some stat porn. (will have to click to enlarge)

 

[Kiwi_]

Not sure where to put this but here we go. I've previously defended Dagg earlier in the season because I felt his form was a step up (which seems a long time ago now given his injury), and he had a decent All Blacks tour last year. That's not a diss towards Ben Smith though. It's not even really a huge compliment to Dagg - he just had a few games where he did well, and towards the latter part of 2014 he looked fairly good too in some areas. Clearly Smith has always been a great player, and heres some stat porn. (will have to click to enlarge)

Ben Smith and Aaron Smith are the best in their positions in the world. Fekitoa has a lethal step and is really making a strong case, I think he will be the most unluckiest not to make the 18/13 pick.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

...Does anyone else think Darwin is actually Ben Smith...haven't seen him around her in a while and Smith has been a very busy lad....think about it.

Further to that i really don't think i (or Darwin) received enough credit for our Ben Smith prophesies years before everyone else jumped on the band wagon, notice that stat says 2009....

 

[austingtir]

...Does anyone else think Darwin is actually Ben Smith...haven't seen him around her in a while and Smith has been a very busy lad....think about it.

Further to that i really don't think i (or Darwin) received enough credit for our Ben Smith prophesies years before everyone else jumped on the band wagon, notice that stat says 2009....

I still dont think Smith gets the credit he deserves, he's been the best (and most consistent) player in the world for probably the last 3 to 5 years yet because of Hansens fixation with Dagg hasnt been allowed to perform to his true potential at international level. Only Brodie Retalick could really put an argument up for being in the ballpark.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I still dont think Smith gets the credit he deserves, he's been the best (and most consistent) player in the world for probably the last 3 to 5 years yet because of Hansens fixation with Dagg hasnt been allowed to perform to his true potential at international level. Only Brodie Retalick could really put an argument up for being in the ballpark.

or or your mate Aaron Smith

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

or or your mate Aaron Smith

:lol: I thought of him too.

I guess the selectors have always seen Dagg, Smith and Savea as their top three back three. Do we lose a lot by having Smith on the wing instead of at fullback? Probably not. Maybe if Jane had been in form for the last couple of years we would have seen Smith at the back more often.

 

[Kiwi_]

Savea and Naholo/Jane on the wings is perfect, with Ben at fullback.

Dagg hasn't played most of the season and Ben Smith is the best FB in the world, even when Dagg is fit. Easy choice if you've got half a brain, even quarter of a brain or even 1 brain cell.

 

[MotherRucker1]

Dagg has his faults, but every player is assessed on whether or not they can fulfill a certain type of strategy, depending on who the opposition is. Which is why you've seen him feature so much despite the slump in form in recent years. Other players aren't necessarily the best in certain positions, but they get a start because they can bring a talent to the table that is unique to them which can be appropriately utilized against certain styles of footy. That's why I don't get people getting so worked up and defensive over Smith - it's not about him being bad. Nobody is implying he isn't the best. But if you only look introspectively and not at how other teams are going to play then you'll fail.

 

[Kiwi_]

Dagg has his faults, but every player is assessed on whether or not they can fulfill a certain type of strategy, depending on who the opposition is. Which is why you've seen him feature so much despite the slump in form in recent years. Other players aren't necessarily the best in certain positions, but they get a start because they can bring a talent to the table that is unique to them which can be appropriately utilized against certain styles of footy. That's why I don't get people getting so worked up and defensive over Smith - it's not about him being bad. Nobody is implying he isn't the best. But if you only look introspectively and not at how other teams are going to play then you'll fail.

It's quite apparent what Ben brings to the 15 position, albeit more responsibility with the Highlanders, he makes the best runs in the world, has extremely great awareness and decision making, not too mention a really tactical kick, Dagg lacks a lot of these qualities. We have been waiting years for a player of his quality at 15, we've had to suffer the likes of Leon McDonald and finally have the best FB in the world, but want to play him at Wing and MF to make room for Dagg, where he's good, but certainly not his most effective. Playing Ben else where and trying to make room for Dagg is just pointless. I certainly understand what you're saying, but I think it's time we just give Ben #15 full time. We have plenty of backs who can cover 14. Jane, Naholo and Lowe are more than enough. With Piutau and Dagg injured I'm more worried about Smiths cover.

 

[austingtir]

or or your mate Aaron Smith

You lot rave about him so thats different.... The point was Ben Smith isnt getting enough credit from the likes of the IRB player of the year type thing. But then Hansen has to play him consistently in one position really to get that. And it probably does come back to Janes lack of form last year its the only reason I can see that Hansen didnt select Smith more at FB.

The Dagg injury could make things rather interesting. Maybe Skudder might get a chance afterall.

 

[donmcdazzle]

It's quite apparent what Ben brings to the 15 position, albeit more responsibility with the Highlanders, he makes the best runs in the world, has extremely great awareness and decision making, not too mention a really tactical kick, Dagg lacks a lot of these qualities. We have been waiting years for a player of his quality at 15, we've had to suffer the likes of Leon McDonald and finally have the best FB in the world, but want to play him at Wing and MF to make room for Dagg, where he's good, but certainly not his most effective. Playing Ben else where and trying to make room for Dagg is just pointless. I certainly understand what you're saying, but I think it's time we just give Ben #15 full time. We have plenty of backs who can cover 14. Jane, Naholo and Lowe are more than enough. With Piutau and Dagg injured I'm more worried about Smiths cover.

Yeah agree, when we have so many good wingers it's pointless to play our best fullback there just to try shoe horn in Dagg.

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You lot rave about him so thats different.... The point was Ben Smith isnt getting enough credit from the likes of the IRB player of the year type thing. But then Hansen has to play him consistently in one position really to get that. And it probably does come back to Janes lack of form last year its the only reason I can see that Hansen didnt select Smith more at FB.

The Dagg injury could make things rather interesting. Maybe Skudder might get a chance afterall.

What and people don't rave about Ben Smith? As good as he is he is probably overrated on this forum, you'd think he was Christian Cullen the way some people go on. (And I'm a huge fan of him, I'd have him starting at the back for sure).

 

[Larksea]

I still dont think Smith gets the credit he deserves, he's been the best (and most consistent) player in the world for probably the last 3 to 5 years yet because of Hansens fixation with Dagg hasnt been allowed to perform to his true potential at international level. Only Brodie Retalick could really put an argument up for being in the ballpark.

Ben Smith did get a nomination and I think he only missed out on winning IRB player of the year because he had a couple of quiet games when he switched to 13 to cover Conrad Smith's sabbatical. Once he adjusted he was superb at 13 but it did take him a couple of games to adjust.

I've been saying it for a long time now, the two best players in the NZ game year in year out used to be Carter & McCaw, but the last ~three years it's been Ben Smith and Brodie Retalick.

In other news, just to make the halfback equation even more confusing. Pulu had an absolute barn stormer with the first start he's had in a while.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

i've said it before in this tread and i dont think anyone really replied...if we need to get dagg on the pitch why not play dagg on the wing so we have one player out of position but another in the best position for him to cover if needs be

 

[MotherRucker1]

I've been saying it for a long time now, the two best players in the NZ game year in year out used to be Carter & McCaw, but the last ~three years it's been Ben Smith and Brodie Retalick.

I can totally understand Retallick. He would be up there when I think of "key All Blacks".

For me it would be Kieran Read and Julian Savea. Those two have done freakish things on the field which I never seen anybody else do. Read is the best number 8 we've had in many years, for his leadership quality and intelligence. Rodney So'oialo had a bit of that, but nowhere near this level. Then there's the many "man of the match" awards and tries Read has accumulated .. and he's not even a back! To me, Read over the last 3 years had typified what a modern day forward should be. You have to be able to run with acceleration, elusiveness and set other players up. McCaw was the benchmark player that you should measure yourself against once upon a time. Read has the torch now, that's just my opinion. As for Savea, it's a more simple reasoning. He's just a freak of nature that has got us through some pretty tough defenses and contributed so many tries obviously. He's less error prone than a Renee Ranger, and more consistent than a Hosea Gear, and offers more skills than a Jonah Lomu. We have other wingers floating round but he came into the roll and nailed it. I wouldn't say other teams fear him but his raw power is well known and he attracts many defenders on to him which can free up other player's channels. Even in our 2012 loss to England, these two men stood up.

The key story over the last few years luckily hasn't been about individuals, despite me singling Savea and Read out. Those two guys are crucial to us, but I remember the reliance we use to have on McCaw and Carter. At times that was unhealthy. Over the last few years it's been more about the team as a collective unit and how each player plays for the full 80. We've come close to losing a few, but the mental resilience seems to be better than ever. That's what you want in a World Cup. In my opinion, it's a much better place to be in. We just have to work on starting well .. something the All Blacks have grappled with for awhile. Knowing that we can chase, literally until the last second is good, but obviously we want to avoid it.

 

[Kiwi_]

Piutau if committed and injury free would be really crucial for us. He's my biggest let down about going to Ireland. Great cover for 14 and 15..

 

[austingtir]

Piutau if committed and injury free would be really crucial for us. He's my biggest let down about going to Ireland. Great cover for 14 and 15..

Sorry but I dont agree at all. He's a complete waste of time and given what the NZRU has done and said since he let everyone know what he's doing theres not a **** show imo even with injurys that he will be selected. The NZRU and Hansen are downright ****** off about the situation behind the scenes and they've not hidden that fact.

The WC is not worth keeping one fringe player (who's heart is not genuinely in it) around for when we have plenty of young and keen players that will be good for years to come!

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Yeah agree, when we have so many good wingers it's pointless to play our best fullback there just to try shoe horn in Dagg.

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What and people don't rave about Ben Smith? As good as he is he is probably overrated on this forum, you'd think he was Christian Cullen the way some people go on. (And I'm a huge fan of him, I'd have him starting at the back for sure).

Really?? You honestly dont think Smith is better than Cullen? Im sorry but even as biased as i am thats just crap. BS is the best FB of all time...... ALL TIME!!. I need to find a good Kanye meme for that.....

The only thing Cullen and BS have in common is two ******** coaches not selecting them!!

 

[nickdnz]

Really?? You honestly dont think Smith is better than Cullen? Im sorry but even as biased as i am thats just crap. BS is the best FB of all time...... ALL TIME!!. I need to find a good Kanye meme for that.....

The only thing Cullen and BS have in common is two ******** coaches not selecting them!!

Not...sure...if serious...