All Black new cap contenders

[MotherRucker1]

I think we are all agreeing in a lot of ways. I'm not going to sit here and pretend Daggs perfect, because he isn't. I'm not cheering for him over Ben Smith, because ideally i want them both to be in blistering form. New Zealand rugby is the winner from that. Over the past few weeks though against these South African sides, not just the dismal Sharks, Dagg has been recognized as somebody getting themselves back into form and actually really making a difference on attack. One the thing the stats don't necessarily tell you is execution, and Dagg has been getting that ball away when it counts. Anyway, his form has been worthy enough to get man of the match and the commentary team abroad to give him his accolades, so he's obviously not letting those hospital passes he's capable of get the better of him.

But I'll just reiterate my point about strategy. I don't know how Hansen and co analyze these things. If you're playing against an international side that scores buckets of tries, and has dangerous backs then Dagg might not be the best choice. If you want someone who can get the team around the park monstrously well with a boot that only the Dan Carter of old could match, and someone who is just as reliable as Cory Jane under the high-ball, then Dagg's your man. At his best, Dagg was blitizing Springboks off the field. I just hope he can reach that again. His form isn't at that level right now, but it's trending upwards. A year or two ago it was spiraling down. Or at best stagnating. That isn't the case right now.

 

[Shaggy]

I think we are all agreeing in a lot of ways. I'm not going to sit here and pretend Daggs perfect, because he isn't. I'm not cheering for him over Ben Smith, because ideally i want them both to be in blistering form. New Zealand rugby is the winner from that. Over the past few weeks though against these South African sides, not just the dismal Sharks, Dagg has been recognized as somebody getting themselves back into form and actually really making a difference on attack. One the thing the stats don't necessarily tell you is execution, and Dagg has been getting that ball away when it counts. Anyway, his form has been worthy enough to get man of the match and the commentary team abroad to give him his accolades, so he's obviously not letting those hospital passes he's capable of get the better of him.

But I'll just reiterate my point about strategy. I don't know how Hansen and co analyze these things. If you're playing against an international side that scores buckets of tries, and has dangerous backs then Dagg might not be the best choice. If you want someone who can get the team around the park monstrously well with a boot that only the Dan Carter of old could match, and someone who is just as reliable as Cory Jane under the high-ball, then Dagg's your man. At his best, Dagg was blitizing Springboks off the field. I just hope he can reach that again. His form isn't at that level right now, but it's trending upwards. A year or two ago it was spiraling down. Or at best stagnating. That isn't the case right now.

Exactly, different player have strengths and weaknesses, and are better for different match scenarios, where different playing styles may be needed. At the end of the day, the only stat of any consequence is that the All Black selectors have prominently picked either Dagg or Smith to start at fullback since 2011. They are for the most part, both included in the match day 23 (and when they aren't both there, there in the wider squad), so the selectors see a need for both of them.

 

[Larksea]

I think the only real room for bolters is hooker and outside backs
With Hore gone, Mealamu aging and injuries to hookers there is a spot to be taken here
Hika Eliot is the clear and obvious choice, he is back to his absolute best and without actually seeing the stats his lineout throwing seems to have been very good so far.

Outside backs, with Dagg not doing so well and Piutau on the naughty list there is room for a bolter I guess. This I think has been reduced by the fact that Jane seems to be in superb form again and ready to start at 14 and allow Smith who is also back to his best after a quiet 2014 by his standards to start at 15

I honestly think its important to bring in form players even in world cup year, I really dont want to see selectors put their pencils away every 4th year and just pick a safe squad, the guys who hit an awesome form patch are important.

Names that come to mind are Lowe, Osborne and Heem. To me Gear is nowhere unfortunately, Heem has totally outplayed him.

Honorable mention goes to Damien McKenzie who has been superb, that first game at 10 for the chiefs was something to behold and the dimensions he has added to the chiefs attacking game has been critical, solid defender, small like Cruden but as good if not better in many ways, he easily has a yard more pace and extra kicking distance compared to Cruden. And only turns 20 this month!

Damien McKenzie probably has not made the public impact Cruden made early in his career because he didn't win the U20 WC or have cancer like cruden did. But I think he probably deserves more attention than he is getting. He's certainly making more of an impact early in his super rugby career than Cruden did. Heck he's not even 20 yet....

If not this year Damien McKenzie looks like a sure thing once Carter and Slade have departed.

other positions of interest for me are the backup halfback(s) for Aaron smith and who will be the extra lose forward, McCaw, Read, kaino, Messam and Cane are sure selections and that leaves one spot open for Maybe Luatua or Vito. IMO Vito not really impressing that much, Luatua has not been that great either but has a much better work rate and can cover lock from the bench and effectively allow a bench with two lose forwards which has worked well in some situations or when a lock is injured.

And Lastly another player of interest IMO is james broadhurst, I picked early on he'd be an AB but he kinda dropped off the radar a bit but hes come on in a big way last season and built on that again this year. He's looking every bit a potential All Black. With Romano's issues and a couple of other locks not being fully established there just maybe room for a bolter but still a long shot.

 

[Shaggy]

I think the only real room for bolters is hooker and outside backs
With Hore gone, Mealamu aging and injuries to hookers there is a spot to be taken here
Hika Eliot is the clear and obvious choice, he is back to his absolute best and without actually seeing the stats his lineout throwing seems to have been very good so far.

Outside backs, with Dagg not doing so well and Piutau on the naughty list there is room for a bolter I guess. This I think has been reduced by the fact that Jane seems to be in superb form again and ready to start at 14 and allow Smith who is also back to his best after a quiet 2014 by his standards to start at 15

I honestly think its important to bring in form players even in world cup year, I really dont want to see selectors put their pencils away every 4th year and just pick a safe squad, the guys who hit an awesome form patch are important.

Names that come to mind are Lowe, Osborne and Heem. To me Gear is nowhere unfortunately, Heem has totally outplayed him.

Honorable mention goes to Damien McKenzie who has been superb, that first game at 10 for the chiefs was something to behold and the dimensions he has added to the chiefs attacking game has been critical, solid defender, small like Cruden but as good if not better in many ways, he easily has a yard more pace and extra kicking distance compared to Cruden. And only turns 20 this month!

Damien McKenzie probably has not made the public impact Cruden made early in his career because he didn't win the U20 WC or have cancer like cruden did. But I think he probably deserves more attention than he is getting. He's certainly making more of an impact early in his super rugby career than Cruden did. Heck he's not even 20 yet....

If not this year Damien McKenzie looks like a sure thing once Carter and Slade have departed.

other positions of interest for me are the backup halfback(s) for Aaron smith and who will be the extra lose forward, McCaw, Read, kaino, Messam and Cane are sure selections and that leaves one spot open for Maybe Luatua or Vito. IMO Vito not really impressing that much, Luatua has not been that great either but has a much better work rate and can cover lock from the bench and effectively allow a bench with two lose forwards which has worked well in some situations or when a lock is injured.

And Lastly another player of interest IMO is james broadhurst, I picked early on he'd be an AB but he kinda dropped off the radar a bit but hes come on in a big way last season and built on that again this year. He's looking every bit a potential All Black. With Romano's issues and a couple of other locks not being fully established there just maybe room for a bolter but still a long shot.

If they don't pick Piutau because he's leaving, they shouldn't pick Heem either http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...-career?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Dagg not doing so well? ... well, I guess I've been through all of that above

 

[Larksea]

If they don't pick Piutau because he's leaving, they shouldn't pick Heem either http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...-career?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Dagg not doing so well? ... well, I guess I've been through all of that above

Hi, I didn't say they wouldn't pick Piutau because he's leaving, "Piutau on the naughty list" refers to how he seems to have ****** some people off in the NZRU, hansen in particular I think was pretty blunt? probably because of the nature of his depatrure, without knowing the full story it seems like maybe they negotiated a contract with him and he agreed to it NZRU expected him to sign and be able to announce it only for him to receive and agree to an overseas deal at the final hour. You would have to say its put him in a position he needs to play his pants off to be selected. Not easy to do in a blues team with maybe the worst record ever.

That said I didn't know heem was leaving, its quite incredable how many top players are on the way overseas it kinda seems like the biggest player drain we have ever seen? The combination of experienced players coming to the end of their careers, established test players leaving in their prime, top young talent in the process of being groomed to be All Blacks and critical 2nd tier players with the potential to eventually step up and be regular All Blacks all leaving after this world cup is beyond staggering.

I love Dagg but to be brutal he's not been a consistent test performer since 2011, we have so much outside back talent it seems unforgivable to keep selecting a guy in such a slump.

 

[Shaggy]

Hi, I didn't say they wouldn't pick Piutau because he's leaving, "Piutau on the naughty list" refers to how he seems to have ****** some people off in the NZRU, hansen in particular I think was pretty blunt? probably because of the nature of his depatrure, without knowing the full story it seems like maybe they negotiated a contract with him and he agreed to it NZRU expected him to sign and be able to announce it only for him to receive and agree to an overseas deal at the final hour. You would have to say its put him in a position he needs to play his pants off to be selected. Not easy to do in a blues team with maybe the worst record ever.

That said I didn't know heem was leaving, its quite incredable how many top players are on the way overseas it kinda seems like the biggest player drain we have ever seen? The combination of experienced players coming to the end of their careers, established test players leaving in their prime, top young talent in the process of being groomed to be All Blacks and critical 2nd tier players with the potential to eventually step up and be regular All Blacks all leaving after this world cup is beyond staggering.

I love Dagg but to be brutal he's not been a consistent test performer since 2011, we have so much outside back talent it seems unforgivable to keep selecting a guy in such a slump.

Fair enough ... I think if anyone from the Chiefs comes in as a bolter, it will be James Lowe as he can play on the Wing or at Fullback, and he's got that big left foot kick. Yes, we seem to be losing a few players, but so are all of the other SANZAR sides (don't know about the rest of the world).

I wouldn't be surprised to see Milner-Scudder playing on the wing for the Canes, the next time one of their AB wingers has to take a rest ... I'm pretty sure Hansen and co would be more than a little curious to see if he can play there.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I think the only real room for bolters is hooker and outside backs
With Hore gone, Mealamu aging and injuries to hookers there is a spot to be taken here
Hika Eliot is the clear and obvious choice, he is back to his absolute best and without actually seeing the stats his lineout throwing seems to have been very good so far.

Outside backs, with Dagg not doing so well and Piutau on the naughty list there is room for a bolter I guess. This I think has been reduced by the fact that Jane seems to be in superb form again and ready to start at 14 and allow Smith who is also back to his best after a quiet 2014 by his standards to start at 15

I honestly think its important to bring in form players even in world cup year, I really dont want to see selectors put their pencils away every 4th year and just pick a safe squad, the guys who hit an awesome form patch are important.

Names that come to mind are Lowe, Osborne and Heem. To me Gear is nowhere unfortunately, Heem has totally outplayed him.

Honorable mention goes to Damien McKenzie who has been superb, that first game at 10 for the chiefs was something to behold and the dimensions he has added to the chiefs attacking game has been critical, solid defender, small like Cruden but as good if not better in many ways, he easily has a yard more pace and extra kicking distance compared to Cruden. And only turns 20 this month!

Damien McKenzie probably has not made the public impact Cruden made early in his career because he didn't win the U20 WC or have cancer like cruden did. But I think he probably deserves more attention than he is getting. He's certainly making more of an impact early in his super rugby career than Cruden did. Heck he's not even 20 yet....

If not this year Damien McKenzie looks like a sure thing once Carter and Slade have departed.

other positions of interest for me are the backup halfback(s) for Aaron smith and who will be the extra lose forward, McCaw, Read, kaino, Messam and Cane are sure selections and that leaves one spot open for Maybe Luatua or Vito. IMO Vito not really impressing that much, Luatua has not been that great either but has a much better work rate and can cover lock from the bench and effectively allow a bench with two lose forwards which has worked well in some situations or when a lock is injured.

And Lastly another player of interest IMO is james broadhurst, I picked early on he'd be an AB but he kinda dropped off the radar a bit but hes come on in a big way last season and built on that again this year. He's looking every bit a potential All Black. With Romano's issues and a couple of other locks not being fully established there just maybe room for a bolter but still a long shot.

pretty much this

 

[MotherRucker1]

IMO Vito not really impressing that much, Luatua has not been that great either but has a much better work rate and can cover lock from the bench and effectively allow a bench with two lose forwards which has worked well in some situations or when a lock is injured.

Harsh. Wasn't Vito actually in really good form before he got injured, or am I imagining that? I do know that just like Luatua he can run hot and cold at international level, but Vito has been very unlucky with injuries. Initially when he started out for the All Blacks I was thinking "maybe he isn't ready" and he went away, found form and kept getting injured which sucks.

I think Broadhurst is playing well, but during a World Cup year he might be lucky to get dibs over Patrick Tuipulotu or Jeremy Thrush as 4th/5th choice lock.

*sigh* doesn't look like I'm going to get anyone to concede anything about Dagg, lol. Nevermind. It's just that if we're saying that Jane should be there based on form but Dagg shouldn't, that's totally inconsistent. Are people actually watching the Crusaders lately? He is in form, at least offensively. People need to let 2011 go. Ricchie McCaw makes a fair few mistakes and isn't playing as well as he did in '06 either, and there have been a couple of situations over Blackadder's reign where McCaw has cost us finals by giving away penalties. So if we're going to get in depth on who's there because of reputation, you might be surprised at the results.

 

[nickdnz]

Great stats... I didn't realise that Dagg was so bad ... does anybody know the All Black game winning percentage when Dagg has started at fullback.

Also great explanations as to why his attacking percentages are largely irrelevant due to the super side he's playing in, compared to the side the other guy is playing in, or discounting blow out games against the Sharks, because they haven't beaten any sides at home this season have they ... of course, as it's ok to explain away his good stats, you'd off course, mention the injuries he's been carrying during the time of your sample(s), or that he's returning from, or even the head to head Crusaders V Highlanders match in which both Dagg and Smith played.

Anyway Dagg's stats look pretty good for someone who jogs up, uses the same goose step, gets caught behind the advantage line, can't pass to the left, and doesn't carry the ball in two hands.

I also looked for these facts but couldn't find them:

The percentage of fans that understand that professional rugby is now about the squad selected, not about what you perceive to be the strongest run on XV.

The percentage of fans the fact that player rotation (yes I used the "R" word) is a fact of life now, and that the same starting XV cannot be used for every match.

The concept that it is possible (in fact likely) that both players in any head to head argument can be included in the squad.

... Those that expect that B.Smith (or insert your favourite player, in their favoured position here) will start every game at fullback, come RWC tiime, are going to be sorely disappointed.

I am not president of the I.Dagg fan club, nor do I dislike B.Smith, just feel there's room for them both (we need them both, unless someone else comes through).

Sheeesh.

I didn't have to post the stats - but as I acknowledged Dagg's stats are better than Ben Smith's this season, and gave one of the reasons as to why they were so good is due to one game in which the Crusaders absolutely dominated in every statistic..

I'm sure you didn't look for any of those instances where he jogs up, uses the same goose step, gets caught behind the advantage line, can't pass to the left (I never said anything about not holding the ball in two hands) - as you can see them in just about every international last year. I can't link a tonne of videos but here are a few match report quotes:

Vs England in November

TRY! Owen Franks goes through a hole. Israel Dagg gets into space with two outside him but Richie McCaw has to reach back to grab the wobbly pass before scoring in the left corner.

Vs Argentina 6 Sep

51 min: A certain try goes begging for the All Blacks as Dagg overthrows a wide open Ben Smith. Argentina was stretched and the hometown boy couldn't make them pay.

Some excellent work in a series of lineouts set up an overlap for the All Blacks but Israel Dagg, who otherwise had a good game, saw his flick pass fly straight into touch when the line was begging.
​

http://www.sportal.co.nz/rugby/allb...l-blacks-past-pumas/d50y6wqzx2z81dhpa3gfby7es

I also recall instances in other games, but to be honest it already wasted enough of my time looking for these. Like I said - I'd be very happy if Dagg got back to being the best fullback in the world - and his form is improving - but it's just f*cking dumb pretending that he hasn't been in bad form over the last couple of years..

At least I'm bothering backing things up, not sure your sarcastic post contributed...

I understand rotation and matching a game plan well. Since you're asking me to backup my assertions - find me average metres kicked by Dagg over say, Barrett (as a fullback option), Ben Smith, Nehe Milner-Skudder. Find my success under the high ball statistics. Because unless you're willing to provide me these statistics and show they are competitively better than other selections, it's a bit rich bawking at my anecdotal evidence..

With no Piatau I'd probably keep Dagg in the squad, but I don't think he is our best fullback option and I'd be happy to see others tried ahead of him.

Harsh. Wasn't Vito actually in really good form before he got injured, or am I imagining that? I do know that just like Luatua he can run hot and cold at international level, but Vito has been very unlucky with injuries. Initially when he started out for the All Blacks I was thinking "maybe he isn't ready" and he went away, found form and kept getting injured which sucks.

He had a great match verse Scotland before coming off injured, scored that insane solo try.

 

[Larksea]

how I see things with Dagg

I feel like for every 10 test matches he's played from 2012 onwards maybe 2-3 have been really good performances, rest of the time he maybe scrapes a pass mark. Where with Ben Smith for every 10 tests 7-8 are really good and he hardly ever fails to impress, he will get the odd game where "the ball doesn't go his way" but he turns it around and there has never really been an issue with his skillset or commitment where often daggs skills have let him down or a few times he had held back when he needed to commit. And as a general rule for test footy the more the All Blacks get the ball to Ben Smith the better we do because he almost never fails to make a positive impact when he has the ball and he almost always makes the right decision, I dont think you can say the same for Dagg.

Bottom line with Dagg, he bloody well needs to find form and have his best year since 2011. The All blacks coaches have committed to him, and backed him for a long time he simply NEEDS to front world cup year its as simple as that. We can't realistically pick someone new this year unless forced to through injury. We have to pick him and he has to front, simple as that. So he is in the squad.

But on form Ben Smith starts at 15 and Jane starts at 14.

In a pinch If Dagg doesn't fire then we have Barrett and Colin Slade who can also cover 15 if needed. I honestly can't see a bolter to play 15 in WC year, it's just a bit more important than wing.

 

[MotherRucker1]

Anyway the defensive stats are pretty interesting. It's extremely hard to gauge a good comparison sometimes if you're just flicking through stats because not every player plays the same amount of games and minutes. Weirdly enough, Ben Smith and Israel Folau have. 78% tackle success rate to Smith, 63% to Folau. Although Folau has his nose in front in attack (4 try assists!? that's crazy). Smith has made 15 tackles, Folau just 7.

If you compare Smith to Willie le Roux it evens up defensively. Smith has played 31 more minutes than le Roux. Each made 15 tackles, but Smith has actually missed 4 to his 1, so le Roux's success is in the 90% region. Attack wouldn't even be contest as Smith looks to better le Roux in all areas, except where le Roux has 5 try assists.

What about Damien McKenzie though!? He's had less minutes on the park than Smith and has made 19 tackles. Nice. Obviously you have to remember with these things that stats can get wildly skewed. If you have a first or second half where all you're doing is defending then of course the fullbacks tackle statistics might get a boost.

 

[Shaggy]

Sheeesh.

I didn't have to post the stats - but as I acknowledged Dagg's stats are better than Ben Smith's this season, and gave one of the reasons as to why they were so good is due to one game in which the Crusaders absolutely dominated in every statistic..

Well, it seemed to me you were "explaining away" the very stats you posted (the ones related to Dagg), but if I've misinterpreted or am wrong about this (it wouldn't be the first time, it won't be the last), I sincerely apologise to you. Having said that, the Sharks stats need to be included. Dagg's influence on the game contributed to the Crusaders dominance so they are relevant. As he plays more games, that game will stand out less.

I'm sure you didn't look for any of those instances where he jogs up, uses the same goose step, gets caught behind the advantage line, can't pass to the left (I never said anything about not holding the ball in two hands)

Well, you kinda of implied the ball in two hands thing, by pointing it out as a strength of Smith's and not of Dagg's, and you are correct, I haven't looked for instances of Dagg's perceived weaknesses. My perception (and that of the All Black selectors apparently) is that his strengths out way his weaknesses, hence my comment on his win ratio with the All Blacks.

- as you can see them in just about every international last year. I can't link a tonne of videos but here are a few match report quotes:

Vs England in November


Vs Argentina 6 Sep



http://www.sportal.co.nz/rugby/allb...l-blacks-past-pumas/d50y6wqzx2z81dhpa3gfby7es

I also recall instances in other games, but to be honest it already wasted enough of my time looking for these. Like I said - I'd be very happy if Dagg got back to being the best fullback in the world - and his form is improving

I must have missed where you said you'd be very happy if Dagg got back to being the best in the world. I just want the best squad too (whether Dagg is part of it or not), so once again, if you have said this previously, I apologise

- but it's just f*cking dumb pretending that he hasn't been in bad form over the last couple of years..

Well, clearly, the selectors feel that it was good enough to give him the opportunities he has, so I dispute that he's been in "bad" form. I will acknowledge that his form has been better in the past, but to discard someone with his experience, without giving him the game time to play his way back to his best, is equally stupid.

At least I'm bothering backing things up, not sure your sarcastic post contributed...

Absolutely, but if your not prepared to have your facts and opinions challenged, then why post them? My sarcastic post was my first post on this thread, and was born out of frustration.

I really don't see why people perceive that because they love B.Smith, they have to throw Dagg under the bus. I'm not even advocating that Dagg must be included in the RWC squad, merely that people put their prejudices away, and judge all of the candidates on their current form and their complete games (not just their weaknesses)

I understand rotation and matching a game plan well. Since you're asking me to backup my assertions - find me average metres kicked by Dagg over say, Barrett (as a fullback option), Ben Smith, Nehe Milner-Skudder. Find my success under the high ball statistics. Because unless you're willing to provide me these statistics and show they are competitively better than other selections, it's a bit rich bawking at my anecdotal evidence..

With no Piatau I'd probably keep Dagg in the squad, but I don't think he is our best fullback option and I'd be happy to see others tried ahead of him.

Great, B.Smith is always going to be included in the squad due to his utility value, regardless of whether he's considered the number one or two fullback in the country, do you agree?

That means that any comparison between Dagg and Smith is largely irrelevant, but is a concept that some (not all) Smith fans seem to either not grasp, or at the very least, acknowledge.

I believe that the selectors won't go with anyone that doesn't have international experience at FB, so that leaves Piutau who's not regarded as a kicking FB, and is probably (wrongly IMO) out of the mix, and Barrett and Slade who both have good kicking games, so if they go with part time cover for FB, as a result of needing/wanting four no. 10's then Dagg will probably miss out, so no kicking metres/comparisons are necessary.

As for NMS or even James Lowe, they need to pick them in the lead up tests, and if they prove better options at international level than Dagg, fantastic - like I said, pick the best squad/mix, based on their complete games. In other words, be fair ... if Dagg misses out, so be it

 

[MotherRucker1]

I won't go on about this, but just wanna put this out there as food for thought.

People are billing Milner-Skudder as a super in form player, which is true when it comes to try assists (he has 4), but in the same breath say Dagg is out of form. Clean breaks, defenders beaten and offloads are all even - literally, they have the exact same numbers. Dagg has gained more meters than Ben Smith, Damien McKenzie or Milner-Shudder. They've both made the same amount of tackles. Now I get Dagg has been around for longer and should be doing better in some areas. But it's just amusing to see some people's perception of what 'form' is ... not just saying Skudder is a future All Black, but actually going so far as to say put him in the ABs this year. If you've been impressed with Skudder, you should be impressed with Dagg.

 

[austingtir]

I won't go on about this, but just wanna put this out there as food for thought.

People are billing Milner-Skudder as a super in form player, which is true when it comes to try assists (he has 4), but in the same breath say Dagg is out of form. Clean breaks, defenders beaten and offloads are all even - literally, they have the exact same numbers. Dagg has gained more meters than Ben Smith, Damien McKenzie or Milner-Shudder. They've both made the same amount of tackles. Now I get Dagg has been around for longer and should be doing better in some areas. But it's just amusing to see some people's perception of what 'form' is ... not just saying Skudder is a future All Black, but actually going so far as to say put him in the ABs this year. If you've been impressed with Skudder, you should be impressed with Dagg.

I still think its more the fact that the Crusaders backline other than Nadolo (who is still a bit of a rookie) and Dagg is rubbish. Put Dagg in nearly any other super rugby side in NZ and I really think his meters will be alot lower and he wont be getting the ball as often simply because there are more credible threats in every other NZ franchise backline.

Also I think he will find it alot tougher over the rest of the comp as teams will adjust to his new found form... I wonder if teams have even been treating him as much of a threat given his past couple of years!

In comparison everytime B Smith touches the ball he attracts a ton of defence as everybody knows what he's capable of. Milner-Skudder will come under the same focus as the competition goes on.

 

[Icemn]

It also depends on strategy and who is best equipped to meet the objectives against a specific team. Even when Dagg was awfully out of form, he was and is still a better kicker than Smith (that's not to say Smith is bad, but he doesn't get the same length). Kicking shouldn't be viewed in isolation to other factors, but it can be a huge part of how the ABs might approach a game. Don't underestimate the territory game. At times Dagg's tactical kicking is better than any number 10 that we have.

I agree with Shaggy. Dagg ain't perfect, or hasn't been in recent years. He isn't a classic tackler, I realize that. But sometimes in the past people on the forum have exaggerated about his flaws. Like he said, Conrad Smith also could have tackled May and failed to. Conrad did something similar in the game against the Stormers. No one really calls him up on it. But when Dagg makes a human mistake, "oh my god, out of form, drop him!"

Were there times where Dagg was being picked on reputation? Probably. Same could be said for McCaw, Carter, Nonu and plenty of players in the past.

i disagree... how was Cullen's kicking? Kicking, should be the least of Hanson's worries... Dagg is a liability on defense for me and his attacking play has not been that great! Ben smith is immense on defense and his attacking ability is fantastic! Ben Smith needs to play 15 i'm not sure why anyone should even doubt that or why we are arguing :? stevie wonder could see it! 11.Savea 15. Smith 14. Jane as easy as that... just think about it... Ben Smith can kick, just as cullen could, he might not be able to get thee 10m extra that dagg could... but why kick? if you could run the freaken distance? and BS and Cullen can/could... leave the kicking to the nothern hemisphere/ SA boys

I won't go on about this, but just wanna put this out there as food for thought.

People are billing Milner-Skudder as a super in form player, which is true when it comes to try assists (he has 4), but in the same breath say Dagg is out of form. Clean breaks, defenders beaten and offloads are all even - literally, they have the exact same numbers. Dagg has gained more meters than Ben Smith, Damien McKenzie or Milner-Shudder. They've both made the same amount of tackles. Now I get Dagg has been around for longer and should be doing better in some areas. But it's just amusing to see some people's perception of what 'form' is ... not just saying Skudder is a future All Black, but actually going so far as to say put him in the ABs this year. If you've been impressed with Skudder, you should be impressed with Dagg.

this is what ****** me off about statements like this... Oh bryan Habana has got more Tri nations tries then Christian cullen... yes... 2more but Cullen played half the games that Bryan Banana played... can you see what i am saying... you have a valid point... but are you comparing apples with apples? do they all have the same amount of gametime? no use you praising dagg for his stats if he played all 8 games this year vs NMS odd 4 games... keep this in mind

let me put it this way, i feel Cullen is the best fullback i have ever seen and my fav player of all time, so he is my benchmark. Ever since culley retired i have been waiting for a fullback to come close or even surpass cullen. Dagg has been that player Up untill i Saw Ben Smith... Am im not biast toward ben, i'm just saying this guy is the next level and comes the closes to Cullen if not even... still not past him though

 

[William18]

I won't go on about this, but just wanna put this out there as food for thought.

People are billing Milner-Skudder as a super in form player, which is true when it comes to try assists (he has 4), but in the same breath say Dagg is out of form. Clean breaks, defenders beaten and offloads are all even - literally, they have the exact same numbers. Dagg has gained more meters than Ben Smith, Damien McKenzie or Milner-Shudder. They've both made the same amount of tackles. Now I get Dagg has been around for longer and should be doing better in some areas. But it's just amusing to see some people's perception of what 'form' is ... not just saying Skudder is a future All Black, but actually going so far as to say put him in the ABs this year. If you've been impressed with Skudder, you should be impressed with Dagg.

I agree on Milner-Skudder. He is showing nothing that Andre Taylor didn't show. I have been a bit depressed by Dagg's trajectory which seems to be downwards. It doesn't mean we should just pick every single flash in the pan though.

 

[Shaggy]

I still think its more the fact that the Crusaders backline other than Nadolo (who is still a bit of a rookie) and Dagg is rubbish. Put Dagg in nearly any other super rugby side in NZ and I really think his meters will be alot lower and he wont be getting the ball as often simply because there are more credible threats in every other NZ franchise backline.

Also I think he will find it alot tougher over the rest of the comp as teams will adjust to his new found form... I wonder if teams have even been treating him as much of a threat given his past couple of years!

In comparison everytime B Smith touches the ball he attracts a ton of defence as everybody knows what he's capable of. Milner-Skudder will come under the same focus as the competition goes on.

Not sure what you're trying to say here (your fact is actually your opinion by the way) Dagg wouldn't get as many run metres because the more creditable threats that he would playing with, would be doing more of the ball carrying, so Dagg wouldn't get the opportunity? If so, wouldn't more creditable threats would mean more people the opposing side would have to mark, and therefore more gaps for "rubbish" players like Dagg to run through wouldn't it?

Yes, B.Smith is a very good player, and is a dangerous attacking threat, so requires a lot of defensive attention (like any FB, but, the Highlanders have two very big, fast wingers to support him this year, who also require close defensive attention, so I would argue that B.Smith has more opportunities than what he's had in previous years.

I agree that NMH might not make as many run metres, as teams figure out what he and the Hurricanes are doing. He does have the benefit of some teams having never played against him before.

i disagree... how was Cullen's kicking? Kicking, should be the least of Hanson's worries... Dagg is a liability on defense for me and his attacking play has not been that great! Ben smith is immense on defense and his attacking ability is fantastic! Ben Smith needs to play 15 i'm not sure why anyone should even doubt that or why we are arguing :? stevie wonder could see it! 11.Savea 15. Smith 14. Jane as easy as that... just think about it... Ben Smith can kick, just as cullen could, he might not be able to get thee 10m extra that dagg could... but why kick? if you could run the freaken distance? and BS and Cullen can/could... leave the kicking to the nothern hemisphere/ SA boys



this is what ****** me off about statements like this... Oh bryan Habana has got more Tri nations tries then Christian cullen... yes... 2more but Cullen played half the games that Bryan Banana played... can you see what i am saying... you have a valid point... but are you comparing apples with apples? do they all have the same amount of gametime? no use you praising dagg for his stats if he played all 8 games this year vs NMS odd 4 games... keep this in mind

let me put it this way, i feel Cullen is the best fullback i have ever seen and my fav player of all time, so he is my benchmark. Ever since culley retired i have been waiting for a fullback to come close or even surpass cullen. Dagg has been that player Up untill i Saw Ben Smith... Am im not biast toward ben, i'm just saying this guy is the next level and comes the closes to Cullen if not even... still not past him though

Well the game has moved, the modern game and tournaments such as the RWC, require more than one player to play in a particular position, so B.Smith (or any other player) is highly unlikely to play every minute of every game, in that position. Even if you subscribe to B.Smith as the best FB, if he's also the best Right Wing, then the selectors need to choose which combination is strongest against a particular opposition.

As I implied earlier, B.Smith is as close to a certainty for selection (providing he's not injured) as you can get, as he's a utility. If Dagg's form is good enough to beat out the other contenders, then, yes, he'll get game time at FB, because that's all he does.

 

[MotherRucker1]

this is what ****** me off about statements like this... Oh bryan Habana has got more Tri nations tries then Christian cullen... yes... 2more but Cullen played half the games that Bryan Banana played... can you see what i am saying... you have a valid point... but are you comparing apples with apples? do they all have the same amount of gametime? no use you praising dagg for his stats if he played all 8 games this year vs NMS odd 4 games... keep this in mind

let me put it this way, i feel Cullen is the best fullback i have ever seen and my fav player of all time, so he is my benchmark. Ever since culley retired i have been waiting for a fullback to come close or even surpass cullen. Dagg has been that player Up untill i Saw Ben Smith... Am im not biast toward ben, i'm just saying this guy is the next level and comes the closes to Cullen if not even... still not past him though

Okay, I'll just stop giving stats then if only Ben Smith lovers are allowed to use them.

1) I did caution earlier in the thread that this is why statistics can be hard to gauge if you're flicking through them, because players haven't played the same amount of minutes and games as each other. I'm not going to sit here all day and adjust statistics relative to their game time. Especially when people are rejecting facts to begin with.

2) Dagg has played nowhere near 8 games. NMS has played more than him, but Dagg has played 30 something more minutes. However, I did caution against this. It's a difference of minutes, not 4 games.

3) Even if you gave Skudder the extra 30 something minutes, what if the Hurricanes had next to no possession in that time? What if Dagg actually managed to get consecutive starts? You could play "what if" all day. I was just using it as a general indication of what's been put on the park.

I accept Dagg is defensively poor this seasons, and perhaps even seasons gone by. But he is not THAT bad in attack, God almighty. He is better than other fullbacks in specific areas. If it's a game in a hostile enviornment where you know the opposition will come at you hard in attack like Ireland at home or something, then you'd probably Ben Smith back there. If it's a game where territory is important (because of the tactical kicking), and you want a decent attack option (because of his awesome clean breaks and meters gained) then Dagg would be a good choice. That is literally all I'm trying to say.

 

[austingtir]

Well the game has moved, the modern game and tournaments such as the RWC, require more than one player to play in a particular position, so B.Smith (or any other player) is highly unlikely to play every minute of every game, in that position. Even if you subscribe to B.Smith as the best FB, if he's also the best Right Wing, then the selectors need to choose which combination is strongest against a particular opposition.

As I implied earlier, B.Smith is as close to a certainty for selection (providing he's not injured) as you can get, as he's a utility. If Dagg's form is good enough to beat out the other contenders, then, yes, he'll get game time at FB, because that's all he does.

I think its pretty simple ATM Jane and Savea are clearly the best wings. Ben Smith is clearly the best fullback.

Now weather that equates to Hansen selecting it that way for the initial games of the season before the WC I dont know but when it comes to the WC crunch games I cant see him not selecting that way baring injury or some huge form slump by somebody.

I fully expect to see Dagg and Smith on the wing to get game time but more so to keep everybody on their toes and rotation than anything.

I will be very very surprised if come the WC semi's and no injuries Ben Smith is not first choice.

 

[Ossau]

i disagree... how was Cullen's kicking? Kicking, should be the least of Hanson's worries... Dagg is a liability on defense for me and his attacking play has not been that great! Ben smith is immense on defense and his attacking ability is fantastic! Ben Smith needs to play 15 i'm not sure why anyone should even doubt that or why we are arguing :? stevie wonder could see it! 11.Savea 15. Smith 14. Jane as easy as that... just think about it... Ben Smith can kick, just as cullen could, he might not be able to get thee 10m extra that dagg could... but why kick? if you could run the freaken distance? and BS and Cullen can/could... leave the kicking to the nothern hemisphere/ SA boys

Totally agree.
We all have to remember his performance against England in June 2014 at fullback with Savea and Jane on the wings: