Another crazy idea...

[kaftka]

Every now and then I come up with something that I think would be cool to have in a rugby game (ie. the use of right analog stick etc...) with very mixed responses. Here is another one:

...Involving rucks:




It's not the most original idea, but here it is:






Now:

Taking a little inspiration from my game of the month (last month. January. It's February now), Fahrenheit, I've come up with a simple minigame in my head of a rucking system that may not suck/be automatic...

What it involves is options... On the fly options so to speak. You'll understand by the end of the seminar.

You see, I quite like the idea of using analog sticks. They're very handy, and allow ofr much greater precision than buttons.
What I was thinking was to have the momentum bar as found in WCR/RC2006, but make it so that you can pass the ball out when ever you have the greater advantage in the ruck.
To achieve this greater advantage you use the left analog stick in a sort of pattern to "push and dig". ie. to gain an advantage keep pushing the analog stick right then curve down (side view) when playing left to right. Icons will pop above the ruck showing you what to do.
Obviously it will be easier to achieve more advantage if you took the ball int, you have more players, and the men in the ruck has better rucking stats.

Furthermore, I like JLRs thing of bringing players in as well, but now that you're using the left stick, perhaps you could use the right analog stick to bring them in and "push or drive into the ruck and use the triggers/shoulder buttons to cycle through the defensive line left or right to select a player....

Sound complicated? Well, obviously you can press A/X to automatically bring men into the ruck like every other game...

So, to recap, you use the left analog to ruck the ball out following a semi-rhythmic pattern, and use the right analog/face button to bring in more players/add extra grunt.


The oppostion does the exact same thing. But it is obviously harder to win the ball unless the guy is isolated/they get more numbers there quicker....


This feature can be turned on or off at any time so you can go back to those silly automatic random rucks.


Thoughts?


And post your own ideas as well....

I may post them all over at EAs forums now that I have an account there...

 

[maddog79]

Interesting kaftka interesting, Maybe for the next game, then everyone will be finally satisfied with the EA Rugby franchise, from there, it can only go downhill....

 

[mikeeboy]

Rucks don't really work like that though, rucks are won within the first few seconds of the breakdown, depending on how the tackle was made, any momentum by the attacking team to drive over the ball, or the ability of a defender to steal the ball by being on their feet in a more isolated situation.

Advantage in a ruck doesn't change. It's won or lost early on, the only variable being the speed at which the ball is recycled.

I'm sure that developers are aware of this but due to animation restrictions they can't come up with any inventive kind of interaction that would represent real rugby so dumb it down to a simplistic model.

If the tackle falls in favour of the attacking team (as most tackles do), then if the defending team get there first, there should be a steal button that is available to press for the time it takes for your oppoenents to pile in a drive you off the ball. If you press it when it's not available you give a penalty away.

If an attacking team get to the ball first as is often the case in close quarters, the first player in has a choice to either pickup or drive over and secure the ball. Once the ball is secure, the defending team don't pile bodies in to the ruck, they protect the fringes.

The srum half should have 4 options. Pop pass to a forward left/right, double tap pass to the outside half (Isn't this how JLR worked - genius), run or kick. Pick up and run should be far quicker than currently available in RC2006.

Don't ask me how you animte this because in real rugby there are loads of ways rucks are formed/turn out but this, in my opinion is how it should work.

 

[kaftka]

Yeah good points...

On your first point though, this is exactly why I think this system will work. You have the advantage by taking the ball in and having the right support play. You can use the quick ball available, or if that isn't available because of isolation or something, you can hold on to it still by pushing and holding the analog stick, and use a set play or whatever that EA has included in the game.

When on defense and the ball is neutral, thats when it would be good to use the right analog to plow through and ruck the ball out.

I'm not too good at explaining things... If only computers had some sort of thingy to allow people to draw diagrams...

Oh well, guess I'll have to wait until the future...

 

[Saint N Sinner]

Some very interesting thoughts there Kaftka, but you know aswell as everyone else that EA won't listen to any ideas/thoughts about the game from fans.

 

[kaftka]

Exactly. Which is why we be immature and letterbomb them.

 

[Saint N Sinner]

Sounds like a plan!

 

[maddog79]

*Cough* Terrorism! *Cough* I'm sure it will be undetectable

 

[lazy_chesnut]

This is nearly the system employed in Rugby 2001, which I think is still the best system to date - i.e. a system and not just random.

The best thing about it was that as teh player got tackled, you could see whether you had a good chance of winning the ruck quickly, so you just put in one or two players if you get there early, and hope your scrum half gets there quickly enough. Otherwise, if the other team got there early, you would need to smash 3 or four people in quick succession to win the ball back.

It was a fair system which wasn't decided by like "If you get there first you win it", or "If you are more than x metres away from the nearest prop with short brown hair and size 10 feet then you lose it". It was decided by getting players there and getting the opposition off the ball, just like real rucking.

So, in Rugby 2001 the players formed like a scrum, but so what. These days it could be made better. It's sort of like the system in RC06 (as far as I can tell from videos, screens and descriptions), but the RC06 system seems a little too easy to recycle the ball.

I loved it in Rugby 2001 when you got isolated, and an opposition player looked like he was going to get the better of your lone rucker, and then you suddenly smash 2 players in to clear the ball out.

Oh yeah, and Rugby 2001 is the only game so far where you can play the ball without a ruck forming after a tackle. If someone got there straight away they could pass or pick-and-go.

Ace.

 

[mikeeboy]

JLR was a bit like this, if you had a couple of guys there and a guy to pick up, you could release the ball quickly before the opposition piled in. It allowed you to compete with an inferior pack and rewarded tackles behind the gain line.

 

[Saint N Sinner]

You can't but you can edit it.

 

[EVOL]

yes to the rugby 2001 rucking system, obviously players with greater rucking stats accompanied with strength and size this would be ideal

 

[woosaah]

Originally posted by .:kaftka:.@Feb 2 2006, 12:19 AM
I'm not too good at explaining things... If only computers had some sort of thingy to allow people to draw diagrams...

use paint

 

[Saint N Sinner]

Wow, high definition technology there W...

 

[best_fullback]

I think a good idea would be like mikeyboy mentioned earlier. A lot of us being rugby players in here would know that rucks are won by 3 different aspects

Skill of the person trying to sleal the ball
Quality of the presentation of the ball
skill of ruckers

I think personally there should be a short phase, maybe a few seconds or less depending on where the support is, where there is the opportunity to steal the ball. This could be by a random bottom sequence that comes up that you have to input as quick as possible so that u can steal the ball. If it is not done quick enough it turns into ruck. I think then the person who has possesion has a button they have to press so that they release the ball. This could of course work in your favour or not because it stops the other team from getting the ball but if you are spotted holding on a penalty is given.

Then when more players come in your bar fills up and its a case of who has the possesion, who has the better team at rucking and who gets players to the breakdown first.

Just a thought, any comments??

 

[rugby2ireland]

I concur with best fullback on his thoughts.
Just to add thoughts:

I don't think rucks should be a dig/pull mechanism like 2001. I liked that less than the current system. Everyone one ended up in rucks and when playing against a human defensive turnovers in rucks were few. That and it took forever to get the ball out.
Let's face it at the international or super 14 type level rucks are over in a few seconds not like the local club where yeah they're contested more and longer.
I rather not have to put in numerous defenders as it just seems unrealistic.

Basically in my opinion rucks break down to:
Quick Ball
Slow Ball
Turnover
Isolated

So on offense rucks should be just simply putting in players to do 2 things.
a. reduce time for defense to steal
b. produce quick ball
Players should reduce time for the steal and speed up quick ball based upon their ruck stats and quickness arriving. Forwards would reduce time rapidly as opposed to say wingers. If players have reduced steal time to zero in say under 5 seconds then quick ball otherwise slow.

Steal time should only be given about 5 seconds unless no support arrives.
I like the thought of a random sequence of buttons appearing to steal the ball.
Maybe like 5 buttons (this can be X,O,^,L1,R1 or it could just be like (up, down, left, right on the right analog). I do agree they should be random.
Time to do this should be based on the how player was tackled and arriving ruckers (time and ruck stats). Any button hit after time elapses would be hands in.

At some points there might not even be chance to steal ball based on number or ability of defender(s) or offensive players there immediately.

The best ball stealers could have 4 or 3 in the sequence or they could have say all Xs.
Being isolated should also result in the sequence being reduced or simplified.
After being isolated for 5 seconds it should be a penalty for not releasing.

Those are just my opinions. Rucks aren't really about big slugfests there about steal, quick ball, slow ball.

 

[NZL Fan]

Some quality thoughts there guys...........

Rucks to me in a game need:

A) to be Transparent/believable. If I happen to retain/lose possession I want to be able to recognise why I retained/lost possession - hence very few random turnovers.

to take into account the players of both teams. If I have Richie McCaw on my side and he is the first guy to a particular breakdown, Id expect the chances of him retaining/stealing possession to be increased.
C) to be relatively quick in order to keep play moving, but with the option to slow the opposition ball down/illegally steal the ball or illegally hold onto the ball on attack, with a negative result a possibility of doing so.

Hence if I choose to slow/illegally steal the opposition ball the chances are increased of being penalised for doing so.

Also vice versa, if I am isolated on attack and decide to hold onto the ball in the ruck I'd expect the chances of being penalised to be increased somewhat.

Consist infringing and getting penalised in the rucks ends with the last offending player being sinbinned.

Therefore the perfect ruck should be for me should have the following possibilities.......

*Quick, fast ball on attack. Starting odds are always with the attacking team in the battle of ruck possession.
*Opposition steal the ball due to attacking player being isolated or being tackled in such a way that is more beneficial to the opposition, having very little support/numbers compared to the opposition, first player/s from the opposition to the ruck are highly skilled in legally turning over ruck ball (would happen only occasionally).
*Attacking player decides to hold onto the ball in the ruck increasing his chances of being penalised but also quaranteeing possession if supporting players reach him relatively quickly.
*Defensive players attempt to slow the ball down/steal the ball illegally. Again increasing the chances of being penalised. Certain players would be more skilled at doing this more successfully than others.
*Once a blue moon possession is lost at the ruck through accidental action (ie. supporting player kicks the ball in the ruck accidently to the opposition). This would be very RARE and would be mentioned by the commentator at the time so that the player would know why they had won/lost the ruck.

Constant infringing and being penalised at the ruck area by any team/one particular player would result in a player being sinbinned.

 

[mikeeboy]

Some good stuff here guys but the detail involved maybe gives an indication why they can't be assed to do it.

P.S. New Zealand's world class openside is Richie McCaw

 

[NZL Fan]

Originally posted by mikeeboy@Feb 3 2006, 09:44 AM
Some good stuff here guys but the detail involved maybe gives an indication why they can't be assed to do it.

P.S. New Zealand's world class openside is Richie McCaw 

whoops!

mind was racing...............now fixed.

 

[TheBokke]

Originally posted by Ride The Cliche@Feb 3 2006, 08:47 AM
Also vice versa, if I am isolated on attack and decide to hold onto the ball in the ruck I'd expect the chances of being penalised to be increased somewhat.

You can do this in 05 mate by holding in the R3 button.

I am sure soon you will get a full explaination from Los on how you can actually achieve all the rest of your good ideas in 05, he will also point out that all your ideas where his anyway

I think he has invented a way to overcome all issues in 05.