Aviva Premiership - Round 11

[psychic duck]

Hook will be a good signing when they finally realise he isn't a good 10.

Didn't even like Hook at 10 back when he was competing with Stephen Jones for the position back in 2008. But he's been brilliant in the centres and at fullback since.

All knowledgeable rugby fans have been in agreement with this for years and years. Frustratingly he's wasted most of his career thinking he's a 10.

 

[Peat]

I do hear what you say j'nuh, and get that it's a tangled situation, but the end result is that Gloucester are constantly marginalising a guy who could be the best English scrum-half of his generation. No matter how you get there, it's a pretty insane thing to be doing. And while I bow to the fact you watch Glaws a lot more than me, I've rarely watched him and not thought he was a serious gem, and am very bemused that you seem so sanguine about him going.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Huh? Our scrum won 6 penalties today. We can't be that bad prop-wise.

We have a quality starter at tighthead but no depth beyond Afoa (Puafisi and Knight are not Premiership-standard scrummagers). At loosehead we have the opposite problem: decent depth but no quality starter.

Yeah, Wood certainly had Cittadinis number today, and Mullan also looked under pressure from Afoa.

 

[j'nuh]

Quite simply, Laidlaw is comfortably the better player. Picking Robson would be knowingly picking the worse player, just to appease his desire for game time. It is unlike the situation going on at other clubs such as Saints, where they have two strong 9s that aren't far off each other. Glos would like to have that kind of situation. It isn't out of spite that we pick Laidlaw at 9; it's simply that we want to win our next game.

Robson has already been in the position of being second-choice at the club. He responded brilliantly last time, forcing his way into the team first as a dual first-choice and then as the sole first-choice, ahead of Cowan. I was expecting him to do the same here, play himself into a position where he will start picking up the starts. I'm not sure if he'd have broken ahead of Laidlaw, but he could have broken into the team on a rotation basis with Laidlaw, and put himself in a strong position to start for the club thereafter.

If Robson was willing to earn his starts at the club, then I would have kept him in an instant. But I don't see how it benefits the club or the player if he stays whilst frustrated at being second-choice. I don't think he'll achieve his potential that way, and if he continues to try and force games, I think Gloucester risk losing games because of him. Also, if Robson does get a starting position at Exeter or Wasps, then Gloucester's loss will be England's gain. As an England fan, I'm not too upset about that.

 

[Geordie]

Well we're coming along nicely. The players are really starting to adapt to the tactics nicely...the youngsters and experienced guys are mixing well...

Keep woring this season and its looking positive for the future.

 

[Peat]

And what happens 3 years down the line when Laidlaw is starting to slow down and when Robson (may) have fulfilled his potential and is starting England 9 - just not at Kingsholm? Who do you pick to try and win your next game then? Why on earth are you not rotating the two anyway - have Glaws not heard of player burnout? How is Robson expected to find the form to contend when he gets next to no gametime when Laidlaw is available?

Why the hell should a guy who's displaced Jimmy Cowan and got his first taste of playing in an England senior shirt hang around to try and reach rotation status at a club with no interest in rotation anyway?

I get that you're trying to see the best in the situation, and I agree that the current situation does no one any good, but I'd be spitting if my club was letting a prospect like Robson slip through its fingers through mismanagement - and mismanagement is definitely the word I'd use.

 

[Irishkid]

Another young back row at quins who is impressive is Henry Cheeseman also Stan south looks a solid second row. Also is George Jones still at quins he was a fly half

 

[j'nuh]

And what happens 3 years down the line when Laidlaw is starting to slow down and when Robson (may) have fulfilled his potential and is starting England 9 - just not at Kingsholm? Who do you pick to try and win your next game then?

We have Braley coming through too, who I have liked the look of. If push comes to shove, Glos is a pretty rich club and should be able to fill that particular hole if the need arises. I mean, Robson is ideally the player to fill that hole.

Why on earth are you not rotating the two anyway - have Glaws not heard of player burnout? How is Robson expected to find the form to contend when he gets next to no gametime when Laidlaw is available?

It isn't as if he's being starved of game time. Ignoring the LV:
Laidlaw - 745 minutes (11+1 appearances)
Robson - 311 minutes (3+8 appearances)
Braley - 144 minutes (1+3 appearances)

After Robson confirmed he was moving on, Braley was prioritised for game time. So Robson would have likely had most of those 144 additional minutes had he stayed on too.

I mean, it's understandable him wanting more minutes. But he is getting chances to prove himself, he just isn't doing himself any services. Honestly, from what I've seen this season, Robson is in more of a selection battle for second-choice than for first-choice. What I've seen of Braley has been more impressive than what I've seen of Robson so far this season. I would still edge Robson at this point, but the thought of Robson ahead of Laidlaw at this point is mad. It's a selection that can lose you games.

Why the hell should a guy who's displaced Jimmy Cowan and got his first taste of playing in an England senior shirt hang around to try and reach rotation status at a club with no interest in rotation anyway?

Because starts are earned through ability, not reputation or potential.

I get that you're trying to see the best in the situation, and I agree that the current situation does no one any good, but I'd be spitting if my club was letting a prospect like Robson slip through its fingers through mismanagement - and mismanagement is definitely the word I'd use.

We stuck by Burns through a lack of form and he moved on anyway.

For me, Laidlaw is one of our top three players at the club, and arguably the most important player (he's in a pivotal position, our goalkicker and he's playing a really high standard) in the team. I just don't see why you would replace him with an out-of-form 22 year old, especially when Gloucester are struggling in nearly every game as it is.

 

[goodNumber10]

just got around to watching the Bath Game in full... having only checked highlights at the weekend.

My, George Ford had some game - the highlights made it look like he was under the cosh for the whole game, but despite the two errors he really did play some brilliant brilliant Rugby during that game.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Surely if robson goes to wasps (as rumoured) then he will be in the same situation battling it out with Simpson?

 

[j'nuh]

He'd come in as second-choice most likely, but he'll get more starts and overtaking Simpson will take a lot less time and skill than overtaking Laidlaw.

If I were him, I'd go to Exe though.

 

[Patchey]

Just watched the Falcons v Sarries game. Very good to see Newcastle playing so well. If I was Dean Richards I'd cast Tuilagi drift and use the money saved from his food budget to poach Rotherham's kicking coach. Socino score a tonne of points for them with the boot last year but whoever is coaching him up in the north east is clearly not helping. Proper goal kicked and Newcastle would be a few places higher in the table at least.

Are you sure about Clifford being a replacement for Easter? I know Clifford played 8 at age-grade level, but physically he's being left behind by the other 8s. Nearly 22 and below 16st (according to the Quins website)! Also, Trayfoot-Robshaw-Clifford would probably be the most lightweight backrow in the Premiership. You'll be needing a massively physical front 5 to be getting away with that.

I think you may need to replace Easter from outside the club. But then you may lose one of your flankers as a result.

Well he was always seen as an 8 for the future, and last season was, IIRC, meant to play a lot more. Then he got injured, along with all our back rows, and Easter had to play a lot more, which suddenly made everyone realise that the old man was a long way from finished. I was at a recent Q&A with some of the players where Clifford himself brought up playing 8 and learning a lot from Easter, so that makes me think he is still, long term, considered as a future replacement. He is obviously not a large as Minty but I do think they're actually quite similar players. And although he's *only* 16st (he looks a bit bigger than that in person IMO) he is very powerful. If he puts on a stone but stays as dynamic as he is now I'd love to see him given some decent time at the back.

You're right about the need for a stronger tight five if we're looking at a Trayfoot-Robshaw-Clifford axis in the future. Matthews and Twomey could well be the sort of lock combo to help provide that, with Horwill obviously arriving next year. There is also a monster of a lock in the acadmeny, whose name currently escapes me, who might be the Ollie Kohn of the future.

I think Ibuanokpe might possibly be Quins' guy at 8 in the next few years... he doesn't look like he's naturally built as a prop (6'3" - 120+kg) where he's currently playing.

He played 8 for Dulwich mostly and was only moved to prop last year i think. So that would be a smart move if he doesn't look like a good enough prospect up front.

Quins seem to build the muscle on a lot of their prospects pretty slow, wouldn't be surprised to see him become fairly big as time goes by. He'll never be really big, not like Easter, but it might be a goer. I'd agree that it looks like he might be a flanker though but we'll see.

I'm also delighted to see Lowe back and in form as I reckon that he's a prime contender for that "13 with genuine attacking skills that we'll never see for England as he's behind a bunch of converted big 12s" slot.

I think with all our injuries at 12/13 over the last few years, O'Shea has just stopped considering players inside or outside centres and wants guys to play both. Quite often see Hopper standing in at 12 with Lowe outside him when they play together. It isn't too late for Lowe to get some caps...

 

[goodNumber10]

Just watched the Falcons v Sarries game. Very good to see Newcastle playing so well. If I was Dean Richards I'd cast Tuilagi drift and use the money saved from his food budget to poach Rotherham's kicking coach. Socino score a tonne of points for them with the boot last year but whoever is coaching him up in the north east is clearly not helping. Proper goal kicked and Newcastle would be a few places higher in the table at least.

I really enjoyed that game. Thought Newcastle really showed something, and if they can keep afloat for another season or so they may well start to push up the table.

Certainly better value than London Exiles X 2

I think with all our injuries at 12/13 over the last few years, O'Shea has just stopped considering players inside or outside centres and wants guys to play both. Quite often see Hopper standing in at 12 with Lowe outside him when they play together. It isn't too late for Lowe to get some caps...

Think left and right centers is quite a normal in Ireland.

I like Lowe, shame he was injured for so long, but in reality i can't see him ever forcing his way into the full England side - he reminds me of Jamie Noon too much in that he's a quality Premiership player but doesn't seem to have anything specifically about him saying "promote me".

 

[SelimNiai]

I really enjoyed that game. Thought Newcastle really showed something, and if they can keep afloat for another season or so they may well start to push up the table.

Certainly better value than London Exiles X 2

Helped this year with the knowledge that they can afford to play a riskier game than their norm because of LW. I think the new pitch is a factor as well. Kingston Park isn't the swamp it usually is at this time of year.

 

[Patchey]

Yeah, I get the Jamie Noon comparison. Still, he's only 25 so in the inevitable period of mad experimentation after the RWC who knows? I'm doubtful we'll have a nailed down centre partnership by then...

 

[Peat]

When he came through, I thought Lowe that that "wow" factor. He scored tries, was very quick and linked up well. Since the first two seasons he has, for various reasons, fallen away. Whether he can find that breakthrough form again, I don't know. If he can, I think he'd have international quality, but we'd never know as England just aren't looking for outside-centres like him.

j'nuh - That, personally, is not what I'd call rotation. That is what I'd call "flog the first choice as much as possible" with a couple of rests and missed games for internationals. Nor would I call 3 starts (potentially 4) a decent platform for a player to make his case.

Not being funny, but Laidlaw isn't much short of a 1000 minutes for club and country so far this season. With 15 games left for him to be selected in as a more or less minimum, assuming he isn't played in 6N rest weeks/Glaws don't win their CC quarter-final, he's going to be around 2,000 total (if fit). If there was a summer tour he'd probably hit 2,200 or so. A player hitting that total every season is a player who, in the long run, is a player who will probably either lose form, lose fitness, or both. You can't keep playing Laidlaw this much. If he's genuinely that important to Glaws, then he needs to be protected, and that means rotation.

Which would have allowed Robson a platform to recapture his form and make a case for international honours - enough gametime to persuade him its worth staying - and in future, provide a international standard scrum-half who has a long standing natural understanding with his team mates. Yes, Glaws have enough money to do ok if they need to attract another scrum-half down the line, but no amount of money can reproduce what they could get from Robson. Everyone knows he has the ability.

Sorry, but I don't see any good reason for this.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ford really looks like he has secured his position as no 1 flyhalf ahead of Farrell now. Some mistakes but ultimately a solid performance and was instrumental in the open play tries. Eastmond firing well, Banahan solid, Watson very good and Cook kept the speed up. Bath seem to be loaded with talent in the backs at the moment and the forwards aren't too shabby either. Wish Louw was English as his breakdown work was great that game.

 

[goodNumber10]

yeah, very hard to argue against Ford as 10 when he has those multiple passing options his decision making really is on another level, and i really like how he tracks the ball once it's left his hands.

 

[Wendigo7]

Real argument for Joseph at 13 now.

I wonder what he has to do, that entire Bath midfield would cause many international teams alot of problems.

 

[j'nuh]

j'nuh - That, personally, is not what I'd call rotation. That is what I'd call "flog the first choice as much as possible" with a couple of rests and missed games for internationals. Nor would I call 3 starts (potentially 4) a decent platform for a player to make his case.

Not being funny, but Laidlaw isn't much short of a 1000 minutes for club and country so far this season. With 15 games left for him to be selected in as a more or less minimum, assuming he isn't played in 6N rest weeks/Glaws don't win their CC quarter-final, he's going to be around 2,000 total (if fit). If there was a summer tour he'd probably hit 2,200 or so. A player hitting that total every season is a player who, in the long run, is a player who will probably either lose form, lose fitness, or both. You can't keep playing Laidlaw this much. If he's genuinely that important to Glaws, then he needs to be protected, and that means rotation.

Which would have allowed Robson a platform to recapture his form and make a case for international honours - enough gametime to persuade him its worth staying - and in future, provide a international standard scrum-half who has a long standing natural understanding with his team mates. Yes, Glaws have enough money to do ok if they need to attract another scrum-half down the line, but no amount of money can reproduce what they could get from Robson. Everyone knows he has the ability.

Sorry, but I don't see any good reason for this.

Very fair points. If I were head coach, I'd certainly be giving Robson a few more minutes. It wouldn't be a lot more, it wouldn't be any additional starts, and it might not be enough to make him stay. (I suspect that he wants to be a first-choice or dual first-choice role, which he does not deserve on form at Gloucester.) But I'd be seeing how he would get on with 20-25 minute appearances from the bench, rather than leaving him to come on in the last 10, and if he did well I would then move him onto starts.

Gloucester are just in too bad a situation to be able to rotate absolutely key players for starts effectively. The likes of Sarries/Saints/Bath can rotate key players against teams such as Newcastle and Irish and still expect a win. The only team that Gloucester can do this against is Welsh. Every other game can easily be lost (we've already lost against the Falcons this season). We are 9 points off top 6 at this point, making our season quite possibly over already. Selecting Robson as a starter over one of our best players and our goal kicker (before Laidlaw came, I think our goal kicking average last season was 57%) just hasn't been an option because it is a game-losing selection, and the season counts for more than the feelings of one player.