Bonus point system

[Goodey]

Yeah there is a significant gulf that the rankings cover up because Italy are just almost always playing a stronger team than themselves and Georgia have the opposite. Italy are a bit crap now but it's not so long ago that they beat Scotland away in the six nations, and they have a few more good wins over the last four years. Georgia have never beaten a tier one team, and I doubt they have ever played a top team's full strength side.

They need what Italy got in the 90s first which is more top tier opposition in the autumn, especially in Georgia.

 

[die_mole]

I'm still in favour of a complete overhaul to a proper 2 tier competition.

Tier 1 - England, Wales, Ireland, Scotland (or top 4 whatever they are)
Tier 2 - France, Italy, Georgia, Romania/Spain/whoever (bottom 2 of 6N and top 2 of next league).

Home and away games totaling 6 games (1 more than now per team). 4 games per weekend (1 more than present) and maybe done so it is a tier 1 and tier 2 game back to back to help increase exposure, hopefully less "who can thrash Italy" scenarios, although the 2nd tier may still have some thrashings or the 4th team in particular. Extra exposure for some tier 2 teams, promotion-relegation game following on from the end. Maintain bonus points. I personally think this would be better all round with an extra 2 weeks required including the relegation game.

Much more in favor of 5 teams (two tier or not). Some teams having two home games and others three makes the championship pretty meaningless in non grand slam years in determining who the best team actually is.

 

[DozeyPillock]

Much more in favor of 5 teams (two tier or not). Some teams having two home games and others three makes the championship pretty meaningless in non grand slam years in determining who the best team actually is.

If you keep six teams, but introduce relegation/promotion WITHOUT a play-off, then the team that gets promoted could be given the helping hand of playing all their games at home. Everyone else get two home and two away games against the main opposition, and plays the new boy away.

 

[Mike Rolls]

Yeah there is a significant gulf that the rankings cover up because Italy are just almost always playing a stronger team than themselves and Georgia have the opposite. Italy are a bit crap now but it's not so long ago that they beat Scotland away in the six nations, and they have a few more good wins over the last four years. Georgia have never beaten a tier one team, and I doubt they have ever played a top team's full strength side.

They need what Italy got in the 90s first which is more top tier opposition in the autumn, especially in Georgia.

Absolutely
Mike

 

[Car]

If you keep six teams, but introduce relegation/promotion WITHOUT a play-off, then the team that gets promoted could be given the helping hand of playing all their games at home. Everyone else get two home and two away games against the main opposition, and plays the new boy away.

I don't know if it makes much sense to do it without a play-off system, considering that's used nowadays in the tiers below. If anything, it would make more sense to have the same rules if you already open up the Six Nations. I think having a play-off system would make the idea more bearable for the Six Nations, too.

 

[DozeyPillock]

I don't know if it makes much sense to do it without a play-off system, considering that's used nowadays in the tiers below. If anything, it would make more sense to have the same rules if you already open up the Six Nations. I think having a play-off system would make the idea more bearable for the Six Nations, too.

I only suggest no play-off to offset the five home games suggestion.

Five home games to the top 5 teams in Europe is going to not just promote rugby in that country but also generate an awful lot of money for the local federation and also the local economy as we all know that rugby fans love to party, and generally do so without costing the earth in damages. Having one team repetitively lose five home games, then win a play-off to do it all again the next year doesn't seem right to me, so force them down and give someone else the benefits the following year.

 

[sigesige00]

I am strongly against the illogical bonus point system. According to this system, the value of a game differs from 4 to 6 points.

 

[Reiser99]

I am strongly against the illogical bonus point system. According to this system, the value of a game differs from 4 to 6 points.

Any reason you feel it is illogical? The bonus system is there to reward tries scored and close games. Not illogical. Also maximum points you can get for a win is 5, so not sure where the 6 has come from. it's 2-3 for a draw or 0-2 for a loss, depending on if you are within 7 points and have scored 4+ tries.

 

[stormmaster1]

Any reason you feel it is illogical? The bonus system is there to reward tries scored and close games. Not illogical. Also maximum points you can get for a win is 5, so not sure where the 6 has come from. it's 2-3 for a draw or 0-2 for a loss, depending on if you are within 7 points and have scored 4+ tries.

i think he refers to there being between 4 and 6 points available between the two sides- although it is actually 7 (4 point win and 3 bonus points)

I don't think changing the 6N is the way forward.
the problem is not Georgia. The problem is that there are lots of Tier2 nations needing more support to improve- USA, Japan, Pacific Islands and Georgia. A solution to helping all nations is the way forward, not introducing relegation to the 6N as a means of helping one nation and probably forcing Italy backwards (though if not Italy, the idea of Scotland for example having a bad year and not having the annual calcutta cup is not good imo)

 

[DozeyPillock]

.. the idea of Scotland for example having a bad year and not having the annual calcutta cup is not good imo)

Bad Years;
Wales 2003
Scotland 2004, 2007, 2012, 2015
France 2013

The following year, think of the 'that grand slam didn't count because not all the main teams were in it' comments

 

[sigesige00]

i think he refers to there being between 4 and 6 points available between the two sides- although it is actually 7 (4 point win and 3 bonus points)

I don't think changing the 6N is the way forward.
the problem is not Georgia. The problem is that there are lots of Tier2 nations needing more support to improve- USA, Japan, Pacific Islands and Georgia. A solution to helping all nations is the way forward, not introducing relegation to the 6N as a means of helping one nation and probably forcing Italy backwards (though if not Italy, the idea of Scotland for example having a bad year and not having the annual calcutta cup is not good imo)

Yes, I meant that the total points of both sides. I was unaware of 7-point game -- e.g. 28 (4 tries) - 26 (4 tries)

As for the 4-try bonus point, Super Rugby's system (when the difference of the number of tries is 3 or more, 1 bonus point is given) is much better.
The 4-try bonus point system can kill game sometimes. For example, Wales needed only 1 point in the last pool game to qualify for QF in the 2011 World Cup (and South Africa had already secured the 1st place). Wales scored the 4th try 38mins in the 1st half. Wales did not need play anymore.

 

[Reiser99]

Yes, I meant that the total points of both sides. I was unaware of 7-point game -- e.g. 28 (4 tries) - 26 (4 tries)

As for the 4-try bonus point, Super Rugby's system (when the difference of the number of tries is 3 or more, 1 bonus point is given) is much better.
The 4-try bonus point system can kill game sometimes. For example, Wales needed only 1 point in the last pool game to qualify for QF in the 2011 World Cup (and South Africa had already secured the 1st place). Wales scored the 4th try 38mins in the 1st half. Wales did not need play anymore.

Hmm I like the idea of only getting a bonus point if the difference in tries scores is 3. Hell it's unlikely but you could lose and still get 2 bonus points. (18-15 for example)
My main issue with some arguments here is based on how fair it is. With 5 games and rotating number of home games it will always be unfair. Surely if it's unfair regardless, you should go for entertaining.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Now it is over, I think it is fair to say that this years tournament demonstrated the value of a bonus points system. Defences are well on top and substantial passages of play involve zero activity in the opposition 22. Games are low scoring affairs, with teams routinely scoring less than 20 points (and the eventual champs only doing that twice in five games I think).

The Bonus point system is not about revolutionising the sport or dramatically changing the tournament table; it's about rewarding risk taking, expansive and entertaining play to improve the spectacle a little bit in the coming years. That was one of the worst days rugby I have ever witnessed yesterday (yes weather was a bit of a factor) and hopefully days like that will become rarer once teams realise that targeting BPs is vital if they are to win the tournament.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Now it is over, I think it is fair to say that this years tournament demonstrated the value of a bonus points system. Defences are well on top and substantial passages of play involve zero activity in the opposition 22. Games are low scoring affairs, with teams routinely scoring less than 20 points (and the eventual champs only doing that twice in five games I think).

The Bonus point system is not about revolutionising the sport or dramatically changing the tournament table; it's about rewarding risk taking, expansive and entertaining play to improve the spectacle a little bit in the coming years. That was one of the worst days rugby I have ever witnessed yesterday (yes weather was a bit of a factor) and hopefully days like that will become rarer once teams realise that targeting BPs is vital if they are to win the tournament.

The bonus point hasn't changed anything this year and it never will. If you don't believe that teams were already trying to score as many tires as possible then do you think they were trying to do

 

[smartcooky]

The bonus point hasn't changed anything this year and it never will. If you don't believe that teams were already trying to score as many tires as possible then do you think they were trying to do

Except of course, it would have in the past. In 2007 Ireland would have won the Six Nations instead of France had bonus points been in place.

Also, your assertion that"teams were already trying to score as many tries as possible" so bonus points would make no difference doesn't take into account the close loss bonus point or tactical decisions team might take to deny opponents a bonus point.

Example.... You are the captain of a team playing in the last round of a competition. Your team leads the competition, and needs only to secure a bonus point to win it. Your opponents need to win and deny you a bonus point and they they will win it. Your team is down by eight points, and the final siren has gone. Your team is awarded a penalty kick in front of the posts in the centre of the 22m.

What is your decision captain?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

The bonus point hasn't changed anything this year and it never will. If you don't believe that teams were already trying to score as many tires as possible then do you think they were trying to do

Wales yesterday were a good example of a team entirely confortable with not scoring a try. Scotland and England have had similar periods in their history being happy enough to settle for penalties rather than take any risks to attempt to secure a try.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Except of course, it would have in the past. In 2007 Ireland would have won the Six Nations instead of France had bonus points been in place.

Also, your assertion that"teams were already trying to score as many tries as possible" so bonus points would make no difference doesn't take into account the close loss bonus point or tactical decisions team might take to deny opponents a bonus point.

Example.... You are the captain of a team playing in the last round of a competition. Your team leads the competition, and needs only to secure a bonus point to win it. Your opponents need to win and deny you a bonus point and they they will win it. Your team is down by eight points, and the final siren has gone. Your team is awarded a penalty kick in front of the posts in the centre of the 22m.

What is your decision captain?

My decision would be to ask Robshaw what to do......and then make the wrong choice