Brett Gosper: 3 Year Residency Rule to be changed?

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Here's hoping. You can't blame countries for trying to improve themselves but the rule as it stands is a farce and is being exploited.

CJ Stander is just the latest to declare for Ireland when his residency period is up. Joe Schmidt would be a fool not to pick him if the rules allow it and his performances are good enough. I hope he has a long and successful international career if his form merits it. A long and successful career for South Africa.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...r-says-test-eligibility-rules-may-be-reviewed

World Rugby chief executive Brett Gosper has indicated that the game's governing body is prepared to review its controversial three-year residency rule for test eligibility as the combination of cashed-up clubs and global player movement test the international game's standing and integrity like never before in the professional era.

"I think obviously there is a concentration of club wealth in the northern hemisphere, there's no question that the salaries are very high in France and in England and it's very tempting for players to ply their trade in the northern hemisphere," Gosper said.
"Each union in the southern hemisphere must find ways so that it's attractive still for those players to remain where they are, playing in SANZAR competitions, playing with the union they've grown up with and so on, but in terms of the residency laws, this was looked at a few years ago and it was determined that the laws as they were seemed to be right for that particular time.
"That was about three or four years ago. I know that [World Rugby] president [Bernard] Lapasset has indicated that this may be something we need to look at again in the future, and look at whether the three-year residency is enough to ensure that integrity of the international game, so that may be something that may need to be looked at."
Pressed on whether the sheer volume of players â€" and their young age â€" who have shifted countries had hastened the need for a review, Gosper said: "You want to preserve the specialness of the international game and therefore while club sides are gathering all-stars from around the world, and top international players, I think there is a feeling that there has to be some steps taken to ensure that the profile of the national team has that integrity, so I think in the mind of president Lapasset, who's suggested we do look at this, that would be something that we're considering."
Any change to the rule would have enormous global implications. France selected players from South Africa, Fiji and New Zealand (of Samoan heritage) in this year's Six Nations, while Ireland have handed Brian O'Driscoll's famous No 13 jersey to a New Zealander, Jared Payne. Scotland have been buying up young South Africans, New Zealanders and Australians for a number of years with a view to 'converting' them after the three-year residency period.
For the Wallabies, it would be something of a double-edged sword. International recruiters, especially the French, are clearly targeting young, uncapped Australians such as Paul Alo-Emile, but on the other hand an extension to the three-year period could hit the likes of rising Rebels winger Sefanaia Naivalu, a Fijian. Henry Speight, another Fijian import, would still not be eligible if, for example, the residency period was lengthened to five years.
The three-year residency period has been lambasted for being too short, allowing players to effectively change nationality with too much ease, and Gosper suggested that opinion was gathering strength in the top echelons of the governing body.
"When that [the residency rule] was determined, I don't think there was quite the flow of of players in international movement that it's become in recent years, through Europe and Japan, and so on," he said. "So maybe it's time to take a look at that, and see if that's correct or some adjustment needs to be made."
Such a change is not an immediate possibility. "That's something that would have to be voted on by the World Rugby council," Gosper said. "It's not just a simple decision. It would be the result of some work by a working group and then a vote and so on, and require quite strong support for any change to be made to the residency rules."
Nevertheless, critics of the rule will be cheering from the rooftops that World Rugby has even put it for discussion.
Gosper also reaffirmed his determination to keep enforcing the so-called 'Regulation 9', the World Rugby rule that forces clubs to release their players for international duties. "It's critical that those players are available because international rugby drives in large part the economics of the game," Gosper said. "We're determined to protect Reg 9, which protects the international game."
That, no doubt, will be music to the ears of the Australian Rugby Union as it prepares to select more and more players who are contracted to overseas clubs.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Five years and remove the grandparent rule, for me.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

5 years and keep grandparent rule for me, or possibly require you to have two grandparents from a country.

 

[munstermuffin]

Here's hoping. You can't blame countries for trying to improve themselves but the rule as it stands is a farce and is being exploited.

CJ Stander is just the latest to declare for Ireland when his residency period is up. Joe Schmidt would be a fool not to pick him if the rules allow it and his performances are good enough. I hope he has a long and successful international career if his form merits it. A long and successful career for South Africa.

In fairness to CJ he's taking out a passport and I genuinely believe he will grow old in Ireland. Jean-Marie and CJ have settled here and she's near the end of her exams to be a solicitor here as well as still training to a high level for swimming in UL.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

In fairness to CJ he's taking out a passport and I genuinely believe he will grow old in Ireland. Jean-Marie and CJ have settled here and she's near the end of her exams to be a solicitor here as well as still training to a high level for swimming in UL.

Aye, but he's about as Irish as Olyy's left ball.

 

[Groundhog]

Aye, but he's about as Irish as Olyy's left ball.

Much like Olyy's left ball, he was slated as being too small in South Africa, then came to Ireland and captured my heart.

 

[Peat]

5 years and keep grandparent rule for me, or possibly require you to have two grandparents from a country.

A reasonable compromise might be 5 years, or 3 years with a grandparent.

Something though. 3 years for someone with no prior ties to the country is an absolute joke. I'll shout all day for liberal interpretations, for a system that risks abuse to allow people with tenuous but heartfelt ties to make the choice they want - I know plenty disagree with that, which is fair, not looking to have that argument again - 3 years is a joke.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Much like Olyy's left ball, he was slated as being too small in South Africa, then came to Ireland and captured my heart.

At that time, yes he was too small, and if you compare him to Arno Botha, Pierre Spies, Duane Vermeulen, Willem Alberts and Francois Louw as well as Schalk Burger, yes he was too small.

But I think he left SA way too early. He was still growing, and his rugby career just barely started. I always hoped that he would return as I really liked him and I even thought he would be a great captain for the Bulls.

I still am one of those guys that would welcome him back with open arms, and I think after this year's World Cup he would be prospect for the Springboks.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

At that time, yes he was too small, and if you compare him to Arno Botha, Pierre Spies, Duane Vermeulen, Willem Alberts and Francois Louw as well as Schalk Burger, yes he was too small.

But I think he left SA way too early. He was still growing, and his rugby career just barely started. I always hoped that he would return as I really liked him and I even thought he would be a great captain for the Bulls.

I still am one of those guys that would welcome him back with open arms, and I think after this year's World Cup he would be prospect for the Springboks.

I read that thinking we were still talking about Olyy's testicle. Getting up at 6 to study for an exam at 9 has it's comedic benefits.

 

[nickdnz]

Five years and remove the grandparent rule, for me.

Would be ideal!

For me I find the grandparent rule to be even more dubious. The reality is that such a huge proportion of colonized countries have a grandparent born in the home nations (I have all four as an example). Doesn't mean I think they genuinely feel English (otherwise there are ALOT of closet English in NZ....). I'm more sympathetic to players who go to England, buy a home there, make friends and family there, know the area intimately, and then play for England (as an example) - than someone who realizes they have an opportunity through grandparents..

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The grandparent rule has to be kept in some form. The possibility of having three to four grandparents from a country and' like your mother and father, identifying yourself as this nationality is a far more reasonable reason to play for a country than the being born in a country but leaving before you can remember anything about the place.

I'd agree with Peat and expand, 5 years residency with no connection, 3 with one grandparent, 1 with two grandparents and eligible with 3-4.

 

[nickdnz]

The grandparent rule has to be kept in some form. The possibility of having three to four grandparents from a country and' like your mother and father, identifying yourself as this nationality is a far more reasonable reason to play for a country than the being born in a country but leaving before you can remember anything about the place.

I'd agree with Peat and expand, 5 years residency with no connection, 3 with one grandparent, 1 with two grandparents and eligible with 3-4.

In other words a completely arbitrary scale determining someones relationship with a country that they have never had to visit, aren't eligible for a passport for, don't have to have shown any prior investment in.

Brilliant.

Here's the rub of it. Hypothetically if I truly believe "hey all my grandparents are English and I therefore feel English" then great. Live in England long enough to legally be considered English (or Irish, Italian, Fijian whatever).

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

In other words a completely arbitrary scale determining someones relationship with a country that they have never had to visit, aren't eligible for a passport for, don't have to have shown any prior investment in.

Brilliant.

Here's the rub of it. Hypothetically if I truly believe "hey all my grandparents are English and I therefore feel English" then great. Live in England long enough to legally be considered English (or Irish, Italian, Fijian whatever).

Require a promising player who wants to play for the country of their parents and grandparents to earn enough recognition to first be recognised in the country of their heritage to get a contract there play there for five years and delay their playing time for the country they supported and wanted to play for all their life?

Equally Brilliant.

You're looking at it from a view of those who moved to a colony, think about it the other way around. For example, let's say you get offered a job in England, marry a girl from NZ over there and live there for the rest of your life, you raise your kids to make sure they know where their from and they in turn marry NZers and do the same. What your proposing is your hypothetical grandkids (hypothetical you is getting real busy as of late), who identify themselves as New Zealanders and due to financial or logistical reasons haven't been able to visit NZ all that often would be required to rise through the ranks in England, get a contract from an S15 franchise play for five years and debut at 27 or 28 missing out on the chance to play in up to 2 world cups and about 50 test caps. My arbitrary scale isn't perfect but it's better than allowing scenarios such as that happening.

 

[nickdnz]

Require a promising player who wants to play for the country of their parents and grandparents to earn enough recognition to first be recognised in the country of their heritage to get a contract there play there for five years and delay their playing time for the country they supported and wanted to play for all their life?

Equally Brilliant.

You're looking at it from a view of those who moved to a colony, think about it the other way around. For example, let's say you get offered a job in England, marry a girl from NZ over there and live there for the rest of your life, you raise your kids to make sure they know where their from and they in turn marry NZers and do the same. What your proposing is your hypothetical grandkids (hypothetical you is getting real busy as of late), who identify themselves as New Zealanders and due to financial or logistical reasons haven't been able to visit NZ all that often would be required to rise through the ranks in England, get a contract from an S15 franchise play for five years and debut at 27 or 28 missing out on the chance to play in up to 2 world cups and about 50 test caps. My arbitrary scale isn't perfect but it's better than allowing scenarios such as that happening.

Yes, I am speaking from the exact definition of someone who has every reason to feel as English as any other grandchild of English parents. And in your proposed scenario I find that absolutely fine. Yes I may make a test debut at 27. How many English players playing rugby in that country and who were born there, will never get their test cap?

I saw nothing wrong with the above scenario. Yep, if I somehow consider myself 'English' despite my only connection being my family - then unfortunately I would in fact have to play somewhere for five years without getting selected for that nation. Which isn't that ridiculous considering I wouldn't be allowed to vote in the country, I wouldn't be able to travel on a passport from that country, there are specific rules in regards to what property I can purchase etc, etc, etc. While in the meantime, while I'm spending those five years living and playing in the country I feel such a profound ancestral attachment for - someone who was actually born there can play. My grandparents all love(d) England, doesn't mean I am as English as anyone who was born there..

And me as a hypothetical grandad - being so staunchly kiwi that I installed a rejection my adopted nations identity into the next two generations little nickdnz's - probably needed to be more proactive to make sure my children's children were New Zealander's...as otherwise its my national identity...not there's...

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yes, I am speaking from the exact definition of someone who has every reason to feel as English as any other grandchild of English parents. And in your proposed scenario I find that absolutely fine. Yes I may make a test debut at 27. How many English players playing rugby in that country and who were born there, will never get their test cap?

I saw nothing wrong with the above scenario. Yep, if I somehow consider myself 'English' despite my only connection being my family - then unfortunately I would in fact have to play somewhere for five years without getting selected for that nation. Which isn't that ridiculous considering I wouldn't be allowed to vote in the country, I wouldn't be able to travel on a passport from that country, there are specific rules in regards to what property I can purchase etc, etc, etc. While in the meantime, while I'm spending those five years living and playing in the country I feel such a profound ancestral attachment for - someone who was actually born there can play. My grandparents all love(d) England, doesn't mean I am as English as anyone who was born there..

And me as a hypothetical grandad - being so staunchly kiwi that I installed a rejection my adopted nations identity into the next two generations little nickdnz's - probably needed to be more proactive to make sure my children's children were New Zealander's...as otherwise its my national identity...not there's...

You're last line still suggests to me you're looking at this as the view of the grandchild of a planter from the colonist which is totally understandable. What I don't think you realise is the significance of national identity to an immigrant, they don't reject their adopted nation's identity and are, in most cases, grateful for the opportunity in this new nation but their home country is more important to them, the culture, beliefs, way of life etc... and they want their children and their children's children to be brought up with these values and culture. Most immigrants don't choose or want to leave home, it's forced on them and they hold a strong national identity.

I think as a New Zealander, or Aussie for that matter, it's different. The planters in Australia bad NZ, like planters throughout history everywhere apart from Northern Ireland, adopted the culture of their new country so I don't think a grandchild of English grandparents is a good example. I was very close to being the definition of someone in the same scenario as you except living in England to Irish grandparents but my parents moved to Ireland before I was born. Despite this I still visited England to visit family at least once a year to visit family until I was 15 and there was no longer reason to visit and yet I don't feel the slightest bit English, neither do my cousins who grew up in England and have only recently moved home or are still over there trying to get the opportunity to, my Dad lived there for 26 years has never once described himself as English. I can't imagine this is any different for Scots, or French, or any European country. The question is whether you accommodate the feeling of most the world or Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US. And the answer is the former.

 

[nickdnz]

You're last line still suggests to me you're looking at this as the view of the grandchild of a planter from the colonist which is totally understandable. What I don't think you realise is the significance of national identity to an immigrant, they don't reject their adopted nation's identity and are, in most cases, grateful for the opportunity in this new nation but their home country is more important to them, the culture, beliefs, way of life etc... and they want their children and their children's children to be brought up with these values and culture. Most immigrants don't choose or want to leave home, it's forced on them and they hold a strong national identity.

I think as a New Zealander, or Aussie for that matter, it's different. The planters in Australia bad NZ, like planters throughout history everywhere apart from Northern Ireland, adopted the culture of their new country so I don't think a grandchild of English grandparents is a good example. I was very close to being the definition of someone in the same scenario as you except living in England to Irish grandparents but my parents moved to Ireland before I was born. Despite this I still visited England to visit family at least once a year to visit family until I was 15 and there was no longer reason to visit and yet I don't feel the slightest bit English, neither do my cousins who grew up in England and have only recently moved home or are still over there trying to get the opportunity to, my Dad lived there for 26 years has never once described himself as English. I can't imagine this is any different for Scots, or French, or any European country. The question is whether you accommodate the feeling of most the world or Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US. And the answer is the former.

Not true. Most immigrants do want to leave home, otherwise they would in fact still be home. I think you're confusing immigrant with refugee...

Regardless, I don't know why the heck what a 75 year old grandad wants is relevant at all. He left wherever the ***** he came from. Maybe he figured there was employment opportunities elsewhere, maybe the guy next door kept trying to kill him. Whatever. He still decided that living in another country was preferable and so chose to move. He's still eligible to play for that country should his 75 year old legs still have the spring in them. His grandkids don't have that option because it is them that must meet the selection criteria.

How you say how the rest of the world feels seems to be backed up by very little, it's certainly not backed up with how foreign states legislate citizenship requirements...

 

[TRF_heineken]

Not true. Most immigrants do want to leave home, otherwise they would in fact still be home. I think you're confusing immigrant with refugee...

Regardless, I don't know why the heck what a 75 year old grandad wants is relevant at all. He left wherever the ***** he came from. Maybe he figured there was employment opportunities elsewhere, maybe the guy next door kept trying to kill him. Whatever. He still decided that living in another country was preferable and so chose to move. He's still eligible to play for that country should his 75 year old legs still have the spring in them. His grandkids don't have that option because it is them that must meet the selection criteria.

How you say how the rest of the world feels seems to be backed up by very little, it's certainly not backed up with how foreign states legislate citizenship requirements...

Actually, Cmac's statement has a little bit of truth in it.

Take my family for example. My Grandfather on my father's side "immigrated" to South Africa in 1939 from the Netherlands. He doesn't qualify as a refugee because at that time the Germans weren't invading Holland and he migrated before the paw-paw hit the fan...

His family all stayed behind in Holland, and just he left as he was 21 at the time. With that said, Me and my brothers and my father are all in the process of getting our European passports, in case the paw-paw hits the fan in SA.

I think most of the current flock of players have grandfathers/mothers who fled europe at a time of the WWII, some returned and some stayed...

 

[munstermuffin]

Aye, but he's about as Irish as Olyy's left ball.

My point though is he's not just here to play rugby and return home. He's bought in to life here.

 

[Raggs]

England to NZ and vice versa is of course a large difference, and tough to believe that a grandchild would have that attachment.

But the proud Scot, who lives on the Scottish Borders, just on the English side, as his parents did, isn't likely going to take too kindly to being told he's not Scottish enough, just because he lives 100m the wrong side of the border.

Change residency by all means, leave the grandparent rule. Yes it can be abused, but it can also allow people to play for a nation that they would not necessarily qualify for by right of birth, due to this being a rather multicultural world.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Not true. Most immigrants do want to leave home, otherwise they would in fact still be home. I think you're confusing immigrant with refugee...Regardless, I don't know why the heck what a 75 year old grandad wants is relevant at all. He left wherever the ***** he came from. Maybe he figured there was employment opportunities elsewhere, maybe the guy next door kept trying to kill him. Whatever. He still decided that living in another country was preferable and so chose to move. He's still eligible to play for that country should his 75 year old legs still have the spring in them. His grandkids don't have that option because it is them that must meet the selection criteria.How you say how the rest of the world feels seems to be backed up by very little, it's certainly not backed up with how foreign states legislate citizenship requirements...

Most of the Polish people living in the UK right now aren't there because they like fat chicks in Burnley and being racially abused by ignorant scum, they can't get a job at home so for reasons of self preservation like employment and the example Heineken gave they leave home. Due to a Pole, or any European, having more national identity through culture, history etc... than a white New Zealander or Australian (not meant to be offensive, it's just a fact), they raise their family with Polish families and traditions, this in turn leads to the kids considering themselves Polish, it can become somewhat diluted by time the grand kids come around but it's still there. Most kids support the same team as their dad as well. Citezenship laws are a terrible example for criteria, they're all very different and it'd be like me saying if you can get a passport you should be able to play, convert to Judaism and you can play for Israel, the grandparent rule would still apply for Ireland, Poland, Spain and Italy among others and to play for the States you'd have to go through an outrageous 6 step process ending in an oath of loyalty. That doesn't seen like a fair system to me. You have not come up with a single reason why a grandparent rule shouldn't exist other than "just because" all your points, well your only point seems to be I have English Grandparents but I don't feel English so lineage ain't worth ****, would suggest that there shouldn't even be a parent rule and everyone should stick to where they're born whether it's England, New Zealand or Kazachstan.This is nothing radical, most people meet their grandparents or some of them, most people are influenced greatly by them and if all four of them, or three or even two or one are from a different country of their birth they're going to identify with that country. I think your approach is based too much on personal experience and is too cautious, the goal should be to stop the Jared Paynes, CJ Standers and Richardt Strauss of the world changing allegiances (Christ we're awful) who cares if a Michael Bent slips through the cracks or a second rate player goes to a tier 2 side, what you don't want is to stop the likes of Simon Geogehan playing for their country.