Can front row players afford to be fat any more?

[Ragey Erasmus]

Rugby has become a very physical sport with the size of players now much larger than a few decades ago. Athleticism is up yet we still see front row players who are fat. This obviously makes you harder to shove around but at the same time it is dead weight that the player is hauling around in the loose and helps to tire them out.

Do people think that front row players can afford to be fat any more or do you think the future is with players who are still very large and strong players but also much less fat and therefore more athletic?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Depends what you mean by fat? I bet that most props aren't quite as fat as you think they are.

When you're around 6' and 120-125kg, as most modern TH props are, you're going to need to eat a ****-ton of food in order to not lose weight.
It's better to eat a little too much than it is to eat too little.

The sort of strength training that they do will give them a body shape that a lot of people equate with being fat.
Look at super lean heavyweight powerlifters - if they had a shirt on you'd probably guess they were fat, but they take the shirt off and they're shredded.

...That being said... there are definitely a lot of guys around who you'd have to say could do with losing a fair bit of weight.
Does Eifion Lewis-Roberts need to carry as much fat as he does? Probably not...

 

[Jaguares]

I think no, always going to be fat props at the front row. This is due to the characteristic of our sport, in rugby the center of gravity is very important. If you are a front row, you need to have a very low center of gravity, since the position requires. If you're tall you have to be very technical to play in that position, there will always be many fat dwarf. If you're short and fat, you have a low center of gravity and very strong, that favors the position.

 

[j'nuh]

Depends on how high you're looking at.

In domestic rugby, when a guy like Andy Goode still has a professional contract as a fly-half, yeah, I think it's acceptable for props to be a little in excess.

In international rugby, you need to be significantly fitter, so I think a lot of the podge props will miss out on making the next step to this level. When a guy like Adam Jones is told to lose weight, and loses his place to a guy like Rhodri Jones, you can see what they are up against.

 

[Jaguares]

Nevertheless, the props of modern rugby aren't as fat as you think, the true fats are the Defensive Tackles of NFL. They weigh on average 150 kg, most of them are obese morbid. In modern rugby there is little props in excess of 150 kg, or even 140 kgs. Most modern props weigh between 105 and 120 kgs.

An example of Defensive Tackle of NFL:

Vince Wilfork (New England Patriots) Height: 1.88 m Weight: 147 kg

In international rugby few players who exceed 150 kgs, Uini Atonio is one of them, but it's shown that players of that weight in modern rugby only can play as impact players, they can't withstand the intense pace for 80 minutes.

Uini Atonio


Height: 1.97 m Weight: 155 kg

American football is very different, the field only measures 50 meters wide, while a rugby field is 70 meters wide on average, that's a HUGE difference. Furthermore rugby is faster, so a 150 kg player can play american football but can't play modern rugby, or at least can't stand in it

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

American football can deal with being fat though because literally they have to pretty much just get in the way for the most part and aren't expected to run all around the pitch constantly. American football is all about power and endurance is not that important at all.

Thing that prompted this is seeing Davey Wilson, I mean you can't tell me his stomach muscle bulge out this much:

 

[Jaguares]

American football can deal with being fat though because literally they have to pretty much just get in the way for the most part and aren't expected to run all around the pitch constantly. American football is all about power and endurance is not that important at all.

Thing that prompted this is seeing Davey Wilson, I mean you can't tell me his stomach muscle bulge out this much:

Also, the rugby test jerseys are too tight, too much. I have an England Test Jersey 2012, is ALL white, and I can assure you is as tight as I saw in my life, Davey wearing an NFL jersey would look better, an NFL player as Wilfork wearing a Test rugby jersey would look much worse.

Also, white color, is the worst enemy of the belly :lol:

 

[Geordie]

Surely it doesnt matter if they are fat its wether they can last 80 mins. Ive known guys with awesome physiques who were just all show...yet guys who looked like they couldnt run 20m play fast rugby for 80 mins.

 

[tituslechmakus]

I think no, always going to be fat props at the front row. This is due to the characteristic of our sport, in rugby the center of gravity is very important. If you are a front row, you need to have a very low center of gravity, since the position requires. If you're tall you have to be very technical to play in that position, there will always be many fat dwarf. If you're short and fat, you have a low center of gravity and very strong, that favors the position.

Unfortunatly you are wrong mate ! Small props are disapearing from international rugby. Players like Thomas Domingo keep being penaized by refs, even if doing not technical fouls, because of their small size. And if you look at every big team stats, you will see that all props are getting tall ! But they remain fat for most of them. After all, the weight of the scrum still counts !

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Is rats going to post another picture of Wilson shirtless again? (Was that rats?)

If so I'm staying well away from this thread.

Esp as he has nothing to this beast.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Thing that prompted this is seeing Davey Wilson, I mean you can't tell me his stomach muscle bulge out this much:

They can indeed...

(bruising is from a torn pec, before you inevitably ask)

- - - Updated - - -

Is rats going to post another picture of Wilson shirtless again? (Was that rats?)

Ready...

Steady...


GO...!

As you can see... he's not really the tub of lard you might think he is.

 

[Patchey]

Yeah, he just has a MASSIVE core and doesn't care about body fat %.

Haskell, take note. This is what a forward looks like.

Anyone got Ben Morgan topless? (Never thought I'd ask for that...)

 

[Jaguares]

Unfortunatly you are wrong mate ! Small props are disapearing from international rugby. Players like Thomas Domingo keep being penaized by refs, even if doing not technical fouls, because of their small size. And if you look at every big team stats, you will see that all props are getting tall ! But they remain fat for most of them. After all, the weight of the scrum still counts !

Depends on what you call high, for me it is high more than 1.90 m. A prop like Dan Cole (1,91 m). At international level not many props measured over 1,90:

Owen Franks 1,85 m
Ben Franks 1,83 m
Tom Youngs 1,75 m
Dylan Hartley 1,85 m
Adam Jones 1,83 m
Richard Hibbard 1,83 m
Tendai Mtawarira 1,82 m
Rory Best 1,80 m
James Slipper 1,85 m
Marcos Ayerza 1,85 m
Juan Figallo 1,87 m
Agustin Creevy 1,86 m

 

[Big Ewis]

to answer the question directly (as opposed to thinking out loud about the general topic) there are indications clearly that front rowers need to trim down on the fat. It's a known and observable fact coaches want more mobility and activity around the park from even their props or hooker, and the proof of that is how popular those new front rowers are (Bis du Plessis, Joe Marler, Alex Menini, the NZ looseheads, or Cian Healy the best example).

Then, you look at a guy like Xavier Chiocci (Toulon, France) who's constantly asked to lose the weight and was just singled out during the int'ls for not having the stamina and quickness for long stretches of Test Rugby. A guy like Weeni Atonio was asked to lose a lot of that fat to gain in mobility and endurance, he was about 150-155 as he arrived in La Rochelle, he's now closer to 140kg.

In France, we used to call those "fat" props "Rugby cassoulet" or "cassoulet front rowers". Cassoulet is an iconic dish of the Southwest, originally from lower classes, and the expression basically depicts how greasy and 'irresponsible' Rugby was back then. Guys would eat and drink wtvr the fk they wanted, even hours from a match. Now everything is optimum level this, maximum endurance and performance performance performance perf (sorry, got stuck) ..performance that. It's only normal with the new professional era everything would tighten up, including our forwards' stomachs. In fact, in Rugby slang in France we call the forwards "les gros" => "the fats" (the fat ones).

Even a guy like Séb Vahaamahina (Clermont, France), a 2m second rower, lost lots of weight during the summer (5-7kg) to make sure he'd be more mobile and could accomplish what was asked of him, moving from a sinking Perpignan (where he was injured most of the year) to an ultra high expectation Clermont club.

Guys like Thomas Domingo have lost lots of weight throughout the years, you look at what he looked like around 2008 and now, he's much smaller. Guys like Adam Jones or Vincent Debatty were "FAT" earlier (you could see those bulges sticking out) and you can see they've firmed up those bellies over the years.
There are examples in the Top 14 of players who were monstrous and have had to tone down the weight (Gilian Galan in Toulouse at No.8 or Antoine Guillamon in Oyonnax).

But like titus brought up, MASS has become important again in the front row since the new rules, and although muscle is good, raw weight is something that's needed once more. Little technical props struggle, and the most obvious, downright scary example of that is Thomas Domingo who went from destroying EVERYBODY on the loosehead side to being an average scrummager, struggling like we've never seen him. You do still see very large guys up front, but it seems again with coaches requiring more activity around the park, a prop is no longer exclusively ridden to the role of scrummager. It should still be said though props go reaching in the 120kg/130kg still, and that's not all firm meat.

 

[big ginger 8]

Well Mike Ross is one of those "fat" props but he still managed to play 80 minutes against a high tempo Aussie team. They can still be fit enough even if they appear fat.

 

[Big Ewis]

Well Mike Ross is one of those "fat" props but he still managed to play 80 minutes against a high tempo Aussie team. They can still be fit enough even if they appear fat.

in fairness, Mike Ross is just about the best Ireland can field right now isn't he, and we all know the difficulties of producing a truly good TH prop, but the dude isn't exactly a reference for his position, neither in the loose and certainly not in the scrum. I know you appreciate him but seriously.

 

[big ginger 8]

in fairness, Mike Ross is just about the best Ireland can field right now isn't he, and we all know the difficulties of producing a truly good TH prop, but the dude isn't exactly a reference for his position, neither in the loose and certainly not in the scrum. I know you appreciate him but seriously.

Seriously yourself?

If a player is so wrecked it doesn't matter if the sub is so substandard as the started won't be able to do anything. Ross was still making his tackles and hitting ucks late on. That's showing he was fit enough to do it which is the question not how good is he. His loose play is massively underrated anyway and it's not so long ago you were holding him up as a great scummager. Didn't have a great series in that regard but he was just back after a month out but still fit enough to play around 150/160 minutes in the two big games.

 

[psychic duck]

Seriously yourself?

If a player is so wrecked it doesn't matter if the sub is so substandard as the started won't be able to do anything. Ross was still making his tackles and hitting ucks late on. That's showing he was fit enough to do it which is the question not how good is he. His loose play is massively underrated anyway and it's not so long ago you were holding him up as a great scummager. Didn't have a great series in that regard but he was just back after a month out but still fit enough to play around 150/160 minutes in the two big games.

Regularly flip flops on their ill informed views. Not long ago Cittadini was the choice in a 6 Nations XV, then claimed never to be sold on him. A bona fide moron who doesn't understand the game.

 

[Big Ewis]

The racist regularly flip flops on their ill informed views. Not long ago Cittadini was the choice in a 6 Nations XV, then claimed never to be sold on him. A bona fide moron who doesn't understand the game.

ah, I knew this was going to be about me so I looked in can someone please do something about excited dyke ?

he's been insulting me directly (as here) much more than I even know I'm sure as I have him on "blocked" and don't read his lunatic posts.
I liked Cittadini when I saw him during the time I added him in my 6N XV, and no TH was convincing me. Adam Jones and Nicolas Mas, the two references, were dropping in form, badly for the second, Castro was meh...and people change their minds psychic, it's not the first time I've done it, certainly not the last time either. Don't worry psychic, keep your pants on and stay calm, it's "normal" for regular human beings everything's going to be oookay !

psychic, you're continuing to show signs of pure aggressiveness bordering on violence too often unfortunately... Your psychological health is compromised for whatever trauma has occurred to you during childhood or more recently and this is very clear for anyone, but for all the Rugby knowledge you've accumulated through the years in some sad, secluded room you've basically no human qualities whatsoever and will target and then relentlessly gnaw on someone's cock, online...on some Rugby forum :/
For anyone who doesn't know this, psychic at a time picked any post I made and neg-repped them for a week, no matter the context or thread, along with bizarre messages of concentrated hatred, some scary enough claiming I was bad luck and needed to stay away from the forum :mellow:

Your style of posting is strange and an indication enough. The way you post it looks like you're sending in the reports to base headquarters or counting historical facts. Dude, take it eaaaaaaaasy buddy, life isn't the military. World War II is actually over buddy, relaaaaaax

In your post, I see "racist", "ill informed", both wrong, the one downright bizarre and utterly impertinent (as usual) and then a bit of a scary recount of whatever choice I'd made for my 6N xv !! Again a wrong information from you (I never said I was never interested in Cittadini) then a gratuitous insult with "bona fide moron".

All that because I think (and very much still do) Mike Ross isn't a great TH, have seen him get destroyed in the scrum often, and don't think he's even that good in the loose ?

Admins, please take this post into account. I'm not derailing, this is important. This guy...is completely nuts. And this is me, Big Ewis, saying that !!!! :lol:

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Can we please refrain from turning this into a personal confrontation.