Champions Cup - Pool 4, Round 4 (Bath, Glasgow, Montpellier, Toulouse)

[Big Ewis]

Saturday 13th December 2014, KO 13:00 (local)
Scotstoun Stadium, Glasgow
Referee: Wayne Barnes

Friday 12th December 2014, KO 19:45 (local)
The Recreation Ground, Bath
Referee: Marius Mitrea
​

 

[goodNumber10]

Burgess set to start at 12 for Bath? WTF? Not sure that's a great idea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30383063

 

[ratsapprentice]

Why?

We're unlikely to progress in the competition, Montpellier are likely to send a very poor team over and will be focussing all their efforts on the T14.
Bath don't have an A game for another few weeks. Get the lad involved.

 

[goodNumber10]

Why?

We're unlikely to progress in the competition, Montpellier are likely to send a very poor team over and will be focussing all their efforts on the T14.
Bath don't have an A game for another few weeks. Get the lad involved.

Because i don't think the future for him is at 12, and that it's very quick.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The coaches at Bath don't think his future is at 12 either.

 

[SelimNiai]

Bit quick to write him off at 12. He's played about 25-30 minutes so far, both times in horrible conditions. Fiday is supposed to be a nice day down this way, see how he goes in a game with better conditions with B**h looking to attack and get him involved

 

[Every Time Ref]

His long-term future isn't at twelve, but his short-term future is, as a way of getting him involved in the game. With the likely weakness of Montpellier in mind, I can see how Ford could see this as the perfect moment.

Having said that, I am with GoodNumber10 on the issue that it's too soon. We aren't out the competition just yet, a five pointer tomorrow night and the right result at Glasgow and we're still in with a reasonable shout, and at Montpellier he didn't look all that. Although he didn't have a lot of opportunity to show what he can do in terms of running, two fairly basic technical errors when tackling and a fairly clueless looking ruck involvement do point to a bit more time needed in my opinion. However, all this experience is useful, and maybe the chance to contribute to setting the pace of the game from the start will be the making of him.

On another note, I heard the Francois Louw is supposed to be named for his first game back from injury. That's pretty tasty.

 

[ratsapprentice]

What technical errors when tackling?

The tackle he was penalised for he wrapped both arms and the guy he was tackling ducked - a frankly ludicrous penalty.
Hitting someone hard isn't illegal - you can't duck out of a tackle.

The first tackle on Ranger was fine too, the smallest hint of a swinging arm, but nothing you don't see every single game - particularly in tackles into touch.

In his three combined carries he's beaten 6 defenders and made 12 metres.
Against a Montpellier side that may not be all that motivated to win I'd back him to do a fair amount with ball in hand.

 

[goodNumber10]

The coaches at Bath don't think his future is at 12 either.

I know, which is why i also think it's a pointless and silly exercise - i'd prefer to see him turning out for the A team for a couple of weeks to get some proper game time (i think i'm right in he hasn't played for the A team at all) instead of chucking him into a cup game.

He's looked lost in the 30 minutes of game time he's had (understandably), and I just think they would be way better developing him in his eventual position instead of here then moving him in - but we've had this conversation.

Honestly, it smacks of marketing involvement to me, regardless of if it is or isn't.

Bit quick to write him off at 12. He's played about 25-30 minutes so far, both times in horrible conditions. Fiday is supposed to be a nice day down this way, see how he goes in a game with better conditions with B**h looking to attack and get him involved

I'm sure he'll be a decent 12, but i think he'll be a devastating 6.

What technical errors when tackling?

The tackle he was penalised for he wrapped both arms and the guy he was tackling ducked - a frankly ludicrous penalty.
Hitting someone hard isn't illegal - you can't duck out of a tackle.

yet he was penalised...and told to keep it down.

In his three combined carries he's beaten 6 defenders and made 12 metres.
Against a Montpellier side that may not be all that motivated to win I'd back him to do a fair amount with ball in hand.

Carries aren't everything, I'm sure he'll do some damage, i think the question is where does his long term future reside and why waste time messing at 12 if he's going to move to 8/6? every average performance just heaps pressure on him he doesn't need, imho.

 

[ratsapprentice]

There haven't been any A team matches for him to play in.

It's exactly what the coaches have been saying they'd do since they signed him, start on the bench at 12, start at 12 then move to the back-row.
The media seems to be painting the situation as if they are winging it - they've clearly got a plan, which they are sticking to.

 

[goodNumber10]

yes, and i don't agree with the plan - I think it's too soon, and I think it's pointless developing him in the 12 role to then move him to 6. We've had this conversation though - i hope he goes well, because i think longterm he could be great in either position (though i think 6 is his shirt).

I think he should have started in the A team then moved up, there is an A fixture on Monday, and one on the 29th.

Either way i don't think they are winging it at all, but it does come across the way of lets get our money.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I'm sure he'll be a decent 12, but i think he'll be a devastating 6.

You may very well be right about this, but as I've said before it seems counter-intuitive to play him in a position whereby his success or failure will be judged on an area of the game which is largely an unknown to him (rucking, the breakdown, etc). We know he can do certain things extremely well, such as carrying, hitting a line, beating defenders, offloading. In contrast we have no idea whether he'll be above average in the core competencies of a back-rower. In other words if you play him at 6, the ways in which he stands out as a player will be diminished in importance.

 

[goodNumber10]

You may very well be right about this, but as I've said before it seems counter-intuitive to play him in a position whereby his success or failure will be judged on an area of the game which is largely an unknown to him (rucking, the breakdown, etc). We know he can do certain things extremely well, such as carrying, hitting a line, beating defenders, offloading. In contrast we have no idea whether he'll be above average in the core competencies of a back-rower. In other words if you play him at 6, the ways in which he stands out as a player will be diminished in importance.

don't disagree, hence I think he should be playing A league over the next month to see how he takes to 6.

 

[Every Time Ref]

What technical errors when tackling?

The tackle he was penalised for he wrapped both arms and the guy he was tackling ducked - a frankly ludicrous penalty.
Hitting someone hard isn't illegal - you can't duck out of a tackle.

The first tackle on Ranger was fine too, the smallest hint of a swinging arm, but nothing you don't see every single game - particularly in tackles into touch.

In his three combined carries he's beaten 6 defenders and made 12 metres.
Against a Montpellier side that may not be all that motivated to win I'd back him to do a fair amount with ball in hand.

I don't think either of his tackles was illegal but I don't think either of them were good technique, do you? Both times he was trying to tackle chest-to-chest standing upright, when he needs to learn to dip-and-hit, hitting with his shoulder and transferring the power upwards. Fair enough, he hasn't changed his instincts yet, but he does need to, and I think starting him might expose these technical weaknesses, as well as others we haven't seen yet. Have we yet seen him go into contact, break the line, and protect the ball whilst presenting it perfectly fro quick recycling? Have we seen him make a tackle on a back in an open centre channel? Or have we seen him not make a tackle, instead trusting the man inside and drifting across to cover the outside and hold the defensive shape?

I also back him to do more with the ball in hand, and as I said I can see Ford's thinking that if Monty don't send a serious side over then this might be one of the easiest games to introduce him, but we already know about his running, basically. I'm more interested in / worried about the stuff we don't know about, the Union-specific stuff such as the examples I gave above. We're all saying that good weather and more time will give him a better chance to use his skills and show us what he can do with ball in hand. Well yes it will, but it will also give him more time to show what he cannot do, and it will give opposition teams more time to probe his weaknesses and try to find ways to expose him

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think Burgess getting this much game time, this early on, is absolutely a marketing move.
Still, he obviously wants to be out there playing and if Bath think they can get away with him on the pitch/bench then there's no real reason he shouldn't be.

It's a shame that the NRL season overlapped with the Prem so much - Bath's back row injury crisis would've been the perfect time/excuse for him to be getting a few bench appearances at 6.

 

[Big Ewis]

thread, Burgessed.
Well what did they play Mass Purchase at last week coming off the bench, who did he replace, how did the backline pan out when he came in, outside center ?

Is Eastmond injured ? The 12 jersey is a bit unclear these days, you see guys wearing it who aren't really first centers or have a great passing game...but Burgess ?? Anyways, if they're going to try anything and experiment, it's right now, this very next match. Montypellier are in complete crisis and away in a Euro game will send a B team that won't offer much as soon as they see they're starting to lose the game, no motivation, the score can get ugly. Just out of manly pride, they'll try to salvage some, but that's really just about it.

 

[Wendigo7]

Ford will tear this Montpeiller side apart.

Francois Louw returning supposedly as well.

If Bath are fully fit and firing midway through January, they will be a massive handful for Toulouse in the away leg. I wouldn't bet on the game personally because if Bath actually show up they could very well win. Toulouse will be favourites, solid, strong and good at the breakdown but not offering too much. Definitely has been enough, for now, but the Glasgow away leg and the Bath home leg will be the big test for Noves.

 

[Every Time Ref]

thread, Burgessed.
Well what did they play Mass Purchase at last week coming off the bench, who did he replace, how did the backline pan out when he came in, outside center ?

Is Eastmond injured ? The 12 jersey is a bit unclear these days, you see guys wearing it who aren't really first centers or have a great passing game...but Burgess ?? Anyways, if they're going to try anything and experiment, it's right now, this very next match. Montypellier are in complete crisis and away in a Euro game will send a B team that won't offer much as soon as they see they're starting to lose the game, no motivation, the score can get ugly. Just out of manly pride, they'll try to salvage some, but that's really just about it.

He came on at twelve for Eastmond. He looked slightly lost but he came on as one of, I think, four substitutions at the same time which completely took Bath's momentum away so he wasn't really given much chance to excel. He made two very leaguey-looking tackles (using his chest rather than his shoulder), one was given as a high tackle on review even though it clearly wasn't, but in my opinion neither was a correct union tackle.

He also fannied around the edge of a ruck then fell over in amausingly inept style at one point.

 

[Big Ewis]

well Mass is obviously still finding his references and steps. No doubt he'll become a great openside center outside flanker no.8.
Anyways if this Union thing doesn't work out for em, he's always got a fantastic path in the food and beverage business: "Sam's Burgerss and fries". And it's his smiling face inside a whirling logo, Looney toons style. With his notoriety alone and all the media noise he's generated, that's surely a strong option to keep in mind.

 

[goodNumber10]

He came on at twelve for Eastmond. He looked slightly lost but he came on as one of, I think, four substitutions at the same time which completely took Bath's momentum away so he wasn't really given much chance to excel. He made two very leaguey-looking tackles (using his chest rather than his shoulder), one was given as a high tackle on review even though it clearly wasn't, but in my opinion neither was a correct union tackle.

He also fannied around the edge of a ruck then fell over in amausingly inept style at one point.

He also hoofed away a ball with a shocking down the middle slice....

I think he'll be fine at 12, i just think we'll get more out of him at 6, and i think he needs to be more involved in the game - he's too out of the action at 12.