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Charlie Hebdo Attack

Deed must accompany word. To denounce extremism is one thing, to start weeding out the extremists from your midst is another.
das

Well, it's not exactly that easy.

Islam as a religion doesn't have a formal hierarchy. Religious scholars, academics and imam are as close to 'spokespeople' on Islam. These people are not militant and have no formal authority over Muslims. It is up to the individual states to combat these extremists, for they break the law. And in many instances national states are trying to combat extremists like ISIS.
 
Well, it's not exactly that easy.

Islam as a religion doesn't have a formal hierarchy. Religious scholars, academics and imam are as close to 'spokespeople' on Islam. These people are not militant and have no formal authority over Muslims. It is up to the individual states to combat these extremists, for they break the law. And in many instances national states are trying to combat extremists like ISIS.

And that's what I'm saying. Since most Muslims live under Muslim-ruled governments, the states need to start taking action against the extremists in their midst. Lip service alone will not end the crisis.


das
 
And that's what I'm saying. Since most Muslims live under Muslim-ruled governments,

again though that is saying all muslims are responsible for the actions of a few.... Indonesia for example can't be held responsible for the actions of the killers in Paris last week.

the states need to start taking action against the extremists in their midst. Lip service alone will not end the crisis.


Many states are in a very fine balance, many don't have the facilities or training to deal with these insurgents and are effectively powerless to stop them - denouncement is about the fullest extent of their capabilities.
 
Many states are in a very fine balance, many don't have the facilities or training to deal with these insurgents and are effectively powerless to stop them - denouncement is about the fullest extent of their capabilities.
There's also the gripping problem of fear/intimidation that must exist within government bodies/the army/the police. ISIS are happy to take sex slaves (including children), torture and exterminate people. As a singleton, I wouldn't be willing to stand up to ISIS. If I were to have a wife and children? F that.

Moreover, even if you can wrap your head around fighting ISIS, what futility you must feel in trying to fight against ISIS... A normal military conquest ends when you topple the opposition's leaders/base of operations, e.g. reaching Berlin in WW2. What tangible goals do you have for defeating ISIS? Kill a leader, another takes their place. Topple their base of operations, they just start a new one elsewhere. As a soldier, you'll spend most of your time defending civilians and waiting for ISIS to come to you. The first time you might hear of ISIS is from a car bomb blowing up aside you, or from a bullet entering the back of your head. I can kind of wrap my head around joining the military to fight a tangible enemy, but to take on guerilla warfare? Ha, no way.

Which is why I think it's a little OTT to have the expectation that more Muslims speak out against extremists. It's so much easier to condemn Islamic extremists from the comfort of Western civilisation.
 
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There's also the gripping problem of fear/intimidation that must exist within government bodies/the army/the police. ISIS are happy to take sex slaves (including children), torture and exterminate people. As a singleton, I wouldn't be willing to stand up to ISIS. If I were to have a wife and children? F that.

Moreover, even if you can wrap your head around fighting ISIS, what futility you must feel in trying to fight against ISIS... A normal military conquest ends when you topple the opposition's leaders/base of operations, e.g. reaching Berlin in WW2. What tangible goals do you have for defeating ISIS? Kill a leader, another takes their place. Topple their base of operations, they just start a new one elsewhere. As a soldier, you'll spend most of your time defending civilians and waiting for ISIS to come to you. The first time you might hear of ISIS is from a car bomb blowing up aside you, or from a bullet entering the back of your head. I can kind of wrap my head around joining the military to fight a tangible enemy, but to take on guerilla warfare? Ha, no way.

Which is why I think it's a little OTT to have the expectation that more Muslims speak out against extremists. It's so much easier to condemn Islamic extremists from the comfort of Western civilisation.

Not quiet true that...ISIS have a very good and experienced command stucture with a charismatic leader which explains their success to date against frankly home guard units in Iraq and Syria. They havnt done as well in Kurdistan as they are up against tough veteren fighters. The old Iraqi army under the old regime would have made mincement of ISIS as would most well trained armies with a decent moral. What ISIS have in the middle east is a core of good experianced fighters mainly from Chechnya and other former war zones and lots of cannon fodder either from stupid westerners on a jihadist adventure or conscripts from the local population. But they have an area of operations and if the World really wanted to tackle them they could and my money would be an excursion from the modern and powerful Turkish army . If the current command structure of ISIS met a sticky end they would be very hard pressed to replace it. As for being fanatics well our Grandads faced worse fighting the Japanese and ISIS have not got the ability to deploy a modern Naval and airforce like they could.
 
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I think people generally need to distinguish Wahhabism from other forms of Islam. It's pretty shocking that most people are not aware of the difference. Wahhabism escapes a lot of persecution because of the Wests ties to Saudi Arabia, but the reality is that almost all violent extreme Islam is Wahhabism. ISIS, Taliban, Al-Quaeda are all practitioners of an extreme Wahhabism (which is of itself a very severe form of Sunni Islam). The reality is that the number one threat radical and militant Islam poses is not on the West, but on other Muslims. More Shi'a Islams are killed due to Wahhabism than Christians or Jews or anyone else. Wahhabism is typically very sever in its punishments, enforces a violent jihad of the sword, is strict on separation of the sexes, and above all is aggressively monotheistic.

It is this specific branch of Islam, combined with Western medias reinforcement of Orientalism, that makes Islam such a heated topic. By in large most of the world practices Islam peacefully. From most Muslims I have talked to (primarily from Indonesia), they talk about the Quran as a more poetic guidelines to how one should try and live. It's not a book of evil. I think any kind of media effects based argument on books is pointless. Catcher in the Rye didn't kill Lennon, a nutter did. Extremists and terrorists don't read the Quran and decide to "kill the infidels" - if that were the case then why haven't we seen 500 years of it? The people who hijacked the flight on 9/11 didn't read the Quran and decide to kill people, they were indoctrinated by Al-Qaueda.

No, the complicated political structure of terrorist organizations are very self serving and they are tyrannical. They prey on people who are often feeling marginalized within Western society, or people who live in conditions which have undergone 150 years of conflict, war and dictatorships. It's not at all surprising that extremists would exist in nations which have simply lived through a very harsh period of history, and I think religion is just used by these organizations as another means of control. It's not so difference to The People's Temple of the Disciples of Christ - which instructed a lot of vulnerable people to kill themselves in the Jonestown Massacre.



I wasn't aware you could read Arabic.

From studying English interpretations of the Quran (only in my undergrad granted, I'm hardly a scholar) - I think Wahhabism is very removed from any intended purpose. As an example many people use this quote as a justification of Islam as a violent religion 'And slay them where ever you may come upon them, and drive them away from where ever they drove you away". However they omit the following verse "for oppression is even worse than killing". Now firstly this means that violence is a means of retaliation - but secondly condemns oppressing as an act worse than violence. Now does Wahhabism sound like it is taking a literal interpretation of Islam? Or does it in fact oppress? Slay in that verse is conditional as well, as the Quran states "do not attack them if they do not attack you first. Allah loves not the aggressor".

Furthermore the Quran forbids Muslims from disputing with people from an earlier revelation (Christians or Jews). The following suruh urges religious tolerance:

"Say: "O you who deny the truth!
I do not worship that which you worship.
And neither do you worship that which I worship..
Unto you, your religion, and unto me, mine!".

Again Wahhabisms very selective and aggressive interpretations of Islam disregard this entirely - with laws which persecute other religions. So often the Quran is quoted and taken at face value, but the context is so often very misleading - especially when it is then applied as a 'fundamental context of its reading'. We could do the same with Christianity in the Old Testement:

"Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp.Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord's people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man" (Numbers 31:7-18). Now I assume Christians don't read the old testament and believe that they can kill those that don't believe or disobey god - and rape women.

The different types of Islam prove my point in a way. Those people would not be killing each other to the same extent were it not for religion. It is a difficult point of discussion because it is difficult to determine which conflicts are religious in nature when many more are about the fight for resources.

I don't see the relevance of the Catcher in the Rye example. Nowhere in the Catcher in the Rye does it say you should go out and kill John Lennon. It is likely that Chapman did have some sort of mental condition which made him kill Lennon.

Islam has killed apostates since its very inception. I think the violence is higher now because we lie in a globalised world and there is better technology.

Whether or not they were indoctrinated by Al Qaeda is irrelevant. The fact is that the people who indoctrinated them already believed in suicide bombing and Islamic Fundamentalism. The point is that they could be indoctrinated by Islam. I do not believe that they could be indoctrinated in the same way by most other religions.

The scary thing is that a lot of these terrorists are not marginalised at all. Someone like Ziad Jarrah grew up in a wealthy and secular family.

I have never said that Islam is completely bad. Like all religions it has good and bat elements. My point is that in Islam it is easy to use the bad parts of that religion to commit violence. The publishing of depictions of the Prophet can be used as justification for Holy War.

Once again, I have criticised Christiainity extensively in every post I have made. The Old Testament is a horrible book I don't believe was ever intended to be taken literally because the New Testament superceeds it.

The big difference between Christianity and Islam isn't the core beliefs (although their beliefs are definitely different). The problem is that Islam is a state sponsored religion in much of the Islamic world. The only Christian nations I know of are Iceland, England, Greece and Denmark. Even in those Christian countries many laws are passed contrary to Christianity and there are many non Christians.
 
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Nearly all wars are a fight for resources and power. Religion is the catalist that drives the cause forward nothing more.
 
that's 72% of Muslims not 72% of Indonesians. Muslim makes up 87% of Indonesia's population, and Sharia courts are already practiced across the country, but compliment traditional state courts for non muslims, state courts take precedence. Indonesia is a relatively Moderate Muslim country despite already practicing Sharia.

Indonesia isn't that moderate if you look at other Pew stats. 33% want the feet of thieves cut off. Albania is probably the most moderate Islamic country closely followed by Kosovo, Turkey, Lebanon, perhaps Iran (although I have not seen hard and fast data) and I suppose Kurdistan.
Exactly, not exclusively because of their religion. Which is exactly what many people are saying in this thread (my Aslan point wasn't aimed exclusively at you)



I said psychological profile, and of course it does as any militants make up does.

I'm not missing your point, you're saying these people would only be fanatical because of their religion, i'm saying that's not true and that it's the gateway they needed.


But you can't generalise about that whole religion and all practitioners of that religion - and THAT'S the point.
I'm generalising based on statistics. When I say that Islamic culture does not respect freedom of speech, I'm drawing upon statistics. Like how 78% of British Muslims wanted those who published the Danish cartoons prosecuted in 2006. Then I will make the generalisation: British Muslims do not believe in freedom of speech. Is that not a fair generalisation based upon the evidence at hand? Of course that doesn't mean all British Muslims think that way and it doesn't mean opinions haven't changed but it's the best data I have to go on.

Suicide bombings have been part of guerrilla warfare through out history, it is not exclusive to Islam as a religion, it was prevalent in Vietnam for example - the point is how a fanatic interprets the religion, not the religion.

Again i repeat I'm not missing your point, you're saying these people would only be fanatical because of their religion, i'm saying that's not true and that it's the gateway they needed and that they very well may have radicalised under a different banner - politics or something else.

It's the individual not the religion.

I'm saying that even if they did radicalise under politics then the results would be far less horrible. I cant imagine Charlie Hebdo mocking the King of Saudi Arabia and then getting attacked by terrorists.

what? Many Muslims the world over have denounced his actions, which by virtue denounces his interpretation of the Quran



Of course it must be open to criticism, but extremist are Minorities within the religion.

In exactly the same way Anders Behring Breivik was just a Christian mentalist who decided the time was right to slaughter 80 innocent people â€" do we hold Christianity responsible for his actions or is he just a mentalist?

As a religion Islam is reasonably new, it’s about 700 years behind Christianity in its formation (right?), so if you think back to what Christians were doing at around the same period of the religions development and that was laying waste to the middle east.

Yes, the world has move on but a lot of the countries that have extremist elements within are former colonies of western countries that were left underdeveloped when we gave up and shipped out, and as Aslan said Religion often fills a void so the growth of Islam isn't unusual, additionally these regions are also regions steeped in warrior culture so again the religion fills the void and adopts the local cultural differences.

I think the extent to which the extremists are minorities has been exaggerated. Most Muslims aren't extremists in that they personally want to see a gang of thugs come to their village in Iraq and marry their 13 year old daughter. However, throughout the Muslim world there are some very scary beliefs. Once again I could go back to the statistics but I don't see the point. What I'm saying is that the many non violent, peaceful Islamists create a certain culture which the violent extremists feed off of.

I don't accept "warrior culture". Norway had a a warrior culture long after Islam had been founded. Absolutely Christianity must bear some responsibility for Breivik. There is no way he does that if he is not a Christian. That of course does not mean all Christians are responsible for what happened but that the idea they believe in is partly responsible. Just like Lenin killing a lot of people in the name of Communism does not make a 20 year old Marxist responsible for those deaths either.

[/QUOTE]


A couple of points with this.

(feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) Islam doesn't have a central religious leader like the catholic (and by connection) Christian church has the Pope, so it’s very difficult to make a religious statement denouncing these acts.

Having said that many moderate and conservative high profile Muslims absolutely HAVE denounced the acts... Many Muslim heads of state, including the hypocritical Saudis have denounced the acts and made statements and gestures that staunchly oppose what is happening within Islamic Fundamentalism.[/QUOTE]

I don't think any Muslims should have to denounce what happened in Paris. The only people who should denounce it are the 3 people responsible. What the Islamic world needs to do is secularise their religion. Basically Islamism must be removed from this planet and I think when that happens Islamic terrorism will have less of a context to exist in.
 
Nearly all wars are a fight for resources and power. Religion is the catalist that drives the cause forward nothing more.

Very true. In many cases religion is used by governments for 'recruitment'. And most religions allow it to happen - preaching war instead of peace. However, it's not the religion, per se, that is at fault, but the clerics who often ignore the very principles of their faith in order to kiss up to the ruling powers (which, of course, goes right back to your statement that wars are fought for resources and power).


das
 
Very true. In many cases religion is used by governments for 'recruitment'. And most religions allow it to happen - preaching war instead of peace. However, it's not the religion, per se, that is at fault, but the clerics who often ignore the very principles of their faith in order to kiss up to the ruling powers (which, of course, goes right back to your statement that wars are fought for resources and power).


das

Yeah like the priests in the first world war telling young men to kill each other. Its ok people blaming Islam but thats just the tool ISIS are using to carve out their little power base.
 
The different types of Islam prove my point in a way. Those people would not be killing each other to the same extent were it not for religion. It is a difficult point of discussion because it is difficult to determine which conflicts are religious in nature when many more are about the fight for resources.

I don't see the relevance of the Catcher in the Rye example. Nowhere in the Catcher in the Rye does it say you should go out and kill John Lennon. It is likely that Chapman did have some sort of mental condition which made him kill Lennon.

Islam has killed apostates since its very inception. I think the violence is higher now because we lie in a globalised world and there is better technology.

Whether or not they were indoctrinated by Al Qaeda is irrelevant. The fact is that the people who indoctrinated them already believed in suicide bombing and Islamic Fundamentalism. The point is that they could be indoctrinated by Islam. I do not believe that they could be indoctrinated in the same way by most other religions.

The scary thing is that a lot of these terrorists are not marginalised at all. Someone like Ziad Jarrah grew up in a wealthy and secular family.

I have never said that Islam is completely bad. Like all religions it has good and bat elements. My point is that in Islam it is easy to use the bad parts of that religion to commit violence. The publishing of depictions of the Prophet can be used as justification for Holy War.

Once again, I have criticised Christiainity extensively in every post I have made. The Old Testament is a horrible book I don't believe was ever intended to be taken literally because the New Testament superceeds it.

The big difference between Christianity and Islam isn't the core beliefs (although their beliefs are definitely different). The problem is that Islam is a state sponsored religion in much of the Islamic world. The only Christian nations I know of are Iceland, England, Greece and Denmark. Even in those Christian countries many laws are passed contrary to Christianity and there are many non Christians.

1. The relevance of Catcher in the Rye - is that literature should not be held responsible for peoples actions. As I have mentioned and demonstrated - most Islamic religious texts do NOT condone violence or oppression. Taking a very literal stance on something like the Quran, which was written as poetry, still doesn't condone these actions unless you remove it from context.

2. Terrorist being indoctrinated by Al-Quaeda is obviously relevant. As my situation with Jonestown demonstrated (which was Christian in nature), these terrorist organizations operate in the same way as cults - I very much doubt they came to the conclusions on what the Quran wanted without the manipulation of terrorist organizations.

3. Religous law in states is always problematic I agree. With that said, ISIS etc don't operate within state law..
 
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Indonesia isn't that moderate if you look at other Pew stats. 33% want the feet of thieves cut off. Albania is probably the most moderate Islamic country closely followed by Kosovo, Turkey, Lebanon, perhaps Iran (although I have not seen hard and fast data) and I suppose Kurdistan.

Good point on Albania and Kosovo, it is very moderate in the scheme of things - i lived and worked in the Balkans for a while - i lived in Skopje but worked in Albania and Kosovo a lot.

Anyway i don't really have much else to contribute to this thread, it's been an interesting discussion and i've learnt loads. Nice that such a topic has been discussed in such a civil manner.

well done all. :)
 
Good point on Albania and Kosovo, it is very moderate in the scheme of things - i lived and worked in the Balkans for a while - i lived in Skopje but worked in Albania and Kosovo a lot.

Anyway i don't really have much else to contribute to this thread, it's been an interesting discussion and i've learnt loads. Nice that such a topic has been discussed in such a civil manner.

well done all. :)
Really? Spent 2 6 month periods of my younger life in the Balkans around the Bosnian town of Baja luka mostly wonder if we were in the same profession?
 
Not quiet true that...ISIS have a very good and experienced command stucture with a charismatic leader which explains their success to date against frankly home guard units in Iraq and Syria. They havnt done as well in Kurdistan as they are up against tough veteren fighters. The old Iraqi army under the old regime would have made mincement of ISIS as would most well trained armies with a decent moral. What ISIS have in the middle east is a core of good experianced fighters mainly from Chechnya and other former war zones and lots of cannon fodder either from stupid westerners on a jihadist adventure or conscripts from the local population. But they have an area of operations and if the World really wanted to tackle them they could and my money would be an excursion from the modern and powerful Turkish army . If the current command structure of ISIS met a sticky end they would be very hard pressed to replace it. As for being fanatics well our Grandads faced worse fighting the Japanese and ISIS have not got the ability to deploy a modern Naval and airforce like they could.

Looks like the Turks are pilling in now. You read it here first folks!
 
Looks like the Turks are pilling in now. You read it here first folks!

Actually I read it first in the papers a couple of days ago :p Not given a wide amount of coverage though.

Awful lot of wisdom in letting the Turks handle as much of it as possible.
 
The only problem is they are hitting the Kurds as well and they are the only ones that have had some success against IS. Should unite against the common enemy.
 
The only problem is they are hitting the Kurds as well and they are the only ones that have had some success against IS. Should unite against the common enemy.

Alas, Turkey doesn't really regard that as a problem. Indeed, I read one of the reasons they actually decided to do something was the Kurds were about to form a consistent territorial area from Iraq to Turkey.
 

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