Cheating in Rugby

[Shaggy]

of course it matters.

It's pretty clear that what he's not making an ethical judgement here; he's saying that it's going to happen anyway, regardless of whether it's "right" or "wrong" as it's human nature to push the boundaries in a competitive environment.

 

[Tony Manx]

GN10.....have you never gone 1 km over the speed limit, have you never used a mobile phone once while driving, have you never dropped any litter, have you never broken any law by even just a little?

If you have, then you are one hell of a guy !!!!

It is that almost anal self discipline you are asking rugby players to have playing a high speed, collision sport to win for money!!! Especially as they have coaches on their backs who would crucify them if they practiced it!

 

[goodNumber10]

GN10.....have you never gone 1 km over the speed limit, have you never used a mobile phone once while driving, have you never dropped any litter, have you never broken any law by even just a little?

If you have, then you are one hell of a guy !!!!

It is that almost anal self discipline you are asking rugby players to have playing a high speed, collision sport to win for money!!! Especially as they have coaches on their backs who would crucify them if they practiced it!

Have I at any point claimed to be whiter than white? Pretty sure i haven't so please don't make this personal or about me I'm just trying to provoke a discussion about why we condone some cheating and no others?

Regardless all those things you mentioned, you get caught people say well you shouldn't have done it.... people get caught in Rugby everyone says it's just part of the game.

People make mistakes, no disputing that but we're not talking about a guy falling over at a ruck. We're talking about players making a conscious decision to break a law consistently. And Sorry that is cheating regardless of if everyone does it or not.

Ultimately the discussion isn't does it go on, and why? It does and we all know why. The discussion is should we condone it? Especially when also berating ref's for missing these things and moaning when our side loses out to these things.

There has been a lot of discussion about this stuff on coaching forums and twitter, "should we coach players to cheat" - the general consensus was no, we shouldn't, if you are fitter and stronger and have worked harder to be the first to the breakdown than someone else why should you then lose out to him coming through the side? Why should Wilkinson get away with kicking with an over inflated ball? If you have read the game better and react quicker why should you lose out because someone tripped you off the ball?

I'm under no illusions about how systemic it is in the game, but if we don't mind people cheating on the pitch why do we then police steroids, why are we so hard on Huget and Habana and Sanchez for diving? It's just gamesmanship right?

And there is a fundamental point in that the game has laws, and can be played within those laws, there is also a point in that cheating goes against the whole ethos of rugby in that you should be better, fitter and more skilled than your opponent.

 

[Tony Manx]

I was making a point and not trying to be personal

I could have used "myself" or "one"......I just used you!

As for coaches not promoting "cheating".......of course they do not promote it!

They call it a professional foul!

 

[McTallshort]

Is cheating in rugby ok?

Is it ok to openly and knowingly choose to do something ok, and should that always be dismissed as gamesmanship as opposed to out and out cheating?

Why is it ok to berate Ref's for missing things players do then absolve the players on the bases of "he's just playing the ref"?

The only thing a rugby player can do wrong is get caught.

 

[Shaggy]

Have I at any point claimed to be whiter than white? Pretty sure i haven't so please don't make this personal or about me I'm just trying to provoke a discussion about why we condone some cheating and no others?

Regardless all those things you mentioned, you get caught people say well you shouldn't have done it.... people get caught in Rugby everyone says it's just part of the game.

People make mistakes, no disputing that but we're not talking about a guy falling over at a ruck. We're talking about players making a conscious decision to break a law consistently. And Sorry that is cheating regardless of if everyone does it or not.

Ultimately the discussion isn't does it go on, and why? It does and we all know why. The discussion is should we condone it? Especially when also berating ref's for missing these things and moaning when our side loses out to these things.

There has been a lot of discussion about this stuff on coaching forums and twitter, "should we coach players to cheat" - the general consensus was no, we shouldn't, if you are fitter and stronger and have worked harder to be the first to the breakdown than someone else why should you then lose out to him coming through the side? Why should Wilkinson get away with kicking with an over inflated ball? If you have read the game better and react quicker why should you lose out because someone tripped you off the ball?

I'm under no illusions about how systemic it is in the game, but if we don't mind people cheating on the pitch why do we then police steroids, why are we so hard on Huget and Habana and Sanchez for diving? It's just gamesmanship right?

And there is a fundamental point in that the game has laws, and can be played within those laws, there is also a point in that cheating goes against the whole ethos of rugby in that you should be better, fitter and more skilled than your opponent.

I'm not sure that we condone rule breaking, in fact serial offending (which is what you are implying by the "breaking the law consistently" remark?) we expect that if players are going to take those risks, that they will be penalised or carded, in much the same way as repeat speeding offenders get a heavier penalty through demerit points or loss of license than one off offenders get on our roads.

We police steroids because its not condoned in any sport (not just Rugby), comparing it to some one coming in through the side of the ruck is a little like comparing Jay walking to Murder in my book; it might be a bit of an extreme analogy, but the point is that there are degrees of seriousness in offending, whether it be on the rugby field, or in life.

Referees, like the Police, are charged with the responsibility for upholding the laws, so I don't see any problem with their performance being scrutinised. If a player is costing a team points, or putting undue pressure on their team mates due to serial sin binning or penalties given away, I don't have a problem with them being given time on the pine next week

 

[Mcfadden]

Of course a coach doesn't sit in a smoke filled room with his players and laugh manically about the way in which they'll cheat. But when you're out on the field, you are very conscious of the way a referee interprets the game and you play to that. There are other examples outside of just a guy “falling down at a ruck.â€

What about not rolling away and a team who does that consistently? If you've been given a referee who has slower count for what constitutes a reasonable amount of time being on the deck, or a lenient interpretation of what that player can do given the piles of bodies on top of him? If you play to that, then I don't believe you are cheating. To that referee you might have some leniency, to a thousand other referees you'd be considered as blatantly laying all over the ball. Or at scrum time when sometimes a prop will be judged to be angling in, and another might judge the intent and momentum as entirely innocent.

Rugby is a unique sport where there are set pieces, rucks, and heavy collisions where you contort your body in all sorts of ways in the intensity of the moment. It's for that reason that applying the laws can be a difficult task. While referees have a rule book, they also need to use their discretion and personal judgement. As a player, you do whatever you can to win, and that includes exploiting the official's judgement. It's a competitive sport, and it's not the ONLY sport where it happens, so let's not pretend it is.

That doesn't mean be a grub, start flattening people off the ball, or holding players back. Because for one thing, that isn't done with the purpose of operating within interpretations – it's just foul play and plainly damaging from a marketing perspective.

 

[goodNumber10]

Of course a coach doesn't sit in a smoke filled room with his players and laugh manically about the way in which they'll cheat. But when you're out on the field, you are very conscious of the way a referee interprets the game and you play to that. There are other examples outside of just a guy “falling down at a ruck.”

Some coaches do actually teach/condone illegal techniques/tactics. There are videos on line for example of people like POC teaching illegal techniques for coming up on the wrong side of the ruck, for bending the rules.

What about not rolling away and a team who does that consistently?

what about it? if you are making an attempt to get away from the ball make it playable then it's obvious, yesterday (and i don't mean to single him out but it's the clearest one i can remember) McCaw was on the wrong side of the ruck, he didn't roll out or to the side he rolled back into it and over the ball.

Sorry but that's not accidental and he's taken a decision to do so.

If you've been given a referee who has slower count for what constitutes a reasonable amount of time being on the deck, or a lenient interpretation of what that player can do given the piles of bodies on top of him? If you play to that, then I don't believe you are cheating. To that referee you might have some leniency, to a thousand other referees you'd be considered as blatantly laying all over the ball. Or at scrum time when sometimes a prop will be judged to be angling in, and another might judge the intent and momentum as entirely innocent.

that's not what we're talking about though - you're talking about playing a ref's interpretation.

I'm talking about someone deliberately breaking the laws - hands in the ruck, playing it on the ground, tripping off the ball, holding people back.

Rugby is a unique sport where there are set pieces, rucks, and heavy collisions where you contort your body in all sorts of ways in the intensity of the moment. It's for that reason that applying the laws can be a difficult task. While referees have a rule book, they also need to use their discretion and personal judgement. As a player, you do whatever you can to win, and that includes exploiting the official's judgement. It's a competitive sport, and it's not the ONLY sport where it happens, so let's not pretend it is.

We're not pretending anything, we're talking about our sport, and the fact is if people conciously decide to do things properly and make it a contest of Tactics, skill, strength and ability the game would be better for it.

That doesn't mean be a grub, start flattening people off the ball, or holding players back. Because for one thing, that isn't done with the purpose of operating within interpretations – it's just foul play and plainly damaging from a marketing perspective.

Exactly!

 

[Peat]

How would it be better?

 

[Umaga's Witness]

It is OK to cheat in professional rugby because no referees police the actual rules, therefore one would be putting their team at a disadvantage by playing to the actual laws rather than the refs own laws.

A second question is whether it is OK to deliberately play outside the referees rules. Certainly it would be acceptable to forget what they are, given all referees have a different set of rules.

But to do so purposely? I could forgive a player who is frustrated with a refs interpretation and thus tries to play to the actual laws.

BUt what about purposely breaking both the refs laws and the actual laws, in situation where the two happen to coincide ( a freak coincidence that would be, I know! ) ? I think that is just not cricket! It might be rugby though. In this case the (actual) laws say the player has committed a professional foul, and can thus be sin-binned. So it is the responsibility of the referee to sin bin players in such circumstances, not just when they do it 10metres form teh goal line! If the referees sin bin players professional fouls then their will be no incentive for players to cheat!

 

[Tony Manx]

If the referees sin bin players professional fouls then their will be no incentive for players to cheat!

Correct and if every player who did so was carded, sooner or later either there would be no players on the field or they, AND the coaches, would stop condoning it!

 

[goodNumber10]

How would it be better?

Explain.

 

[Mcfadden]

I don't know G10. Players will always break the rules in the heat of the moment. Hands in the ruck, not rolling away, not supporting their own body weight to gain an unfair and illegal advantage. Last year 'taking up space' was heavily penalized; it serves no purpose to win the ball, it just slows things down. This year the Warratahs and Wallabies in Sydney have gone back to doing it and it seems to have gone unchecked. I wish it wouldn't happen, I wish players were squeaky clean - but if your technique or sneakiness goes undetected then why not try it? Because you can sure as hell bet your opposition will be doing it. But you do these things at your own risk and face the possibility of penalties and yellow cards. The only point where I draw the line is harmful behavior or breaking rules around health & safety.

 

[nickdnz]

For me it's not about 'every player would do it'.

If every referee, refereed consistently - then I think you would have a point. Rugby doesn't have rules, it has laws - and the interpretation of the rules is complex and varied.

As an example: A few weeks ago I was penalized for coming in from the side. From my understanding the 'gate' of a tackle is the from the horizontal length of a body position (which is why in part players are encouraged to create as small a space as possible - to decrease the size of the gate and generally place the ball as far back as possible for your team). Now for some reason the ball was placed and rolled from the side - so guarding players formed to the side of the player. Now surely because of this I can go over the top of the tackled players (who defined the gate), to clear players from the ruck.

However to people on the sideline it looked like I was going in from the side (as I wasn't where players were standing), and to the referee the same thing. In an action which took three seconds - I used my judgement of the rules (my understanding could be wrong), acted according to what a referee thought was illegal - and was penalized. Therefore presumably I am a cheat at rugby. I think accusing any player of being a cheat based on their interpretations or efforts on any technical part of rugby is misguided. We blame opensides as an example - but do I think that any scrum half feeds the ball straight in a scrum? Or any back-line doesn't begin to move forward from the 10m line until they are darn sure the ball has left the line-out?

Is it okay? Well there is a risk to the action and if it is ruled not okay that risk could be 3 points. That has to be policed consistency enough by referees so there is no ambiguity around it. Like the analogy I used in another thread, if a sprinter is disqualified for a false start, it doesn't make him a cheater. It means that he miss-timed or misjudged a situation in which a split second defined the outcome. That isn't all that different from many situations in rugby.

Obliviously there are occurrences of cheating which can harm a player and done maliciously, and I have no time for that. Quade Cooper kneeing McCaw as an example was one used earlier. But alternatively I have sympathy for Cooper's tackle on Aaron Smith, I don't think it was malicious, but a poorly executed attempt in one of those situations where a split second matters. Ultimately as long as an action is done with the understanding it could be penalized - and the only thing it effects is the outcome of the match (so no harm to a player) - then I think it's difficult to qualify a player as a cheater.

 

[Peat]

Explain.

How would the game be better for everyone making a conscious effort not to cheat?

You said it would be better. I'm dubious as to how it would make the game notably better, save for maybe the scrum, but I might be missing something.

 

[goodNumber10]

How would the game be better for everyone making a conscious effort not to cheat?

You said it would be better. I'm dubious as to how it would make the game notably better, save for maybe the scrum, but I might be missing something.

How would it not?

People staying on their feet at the ruck instead of sealing off would instantly make cleaner ball and more of a competition.

People making me of an effort to come through the gate rather than in at the side would have a similar effect.

People rolling away, or not taking that decision to flop on the wrong side would have a similar effect.

Not playing the half back would provide quicker ball.

Staying onside during phase play would create more space.

Christ the list is endless.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think that some incidents shouldn't be placed in the category as cheating. Some of them are really just a transgression, and has nothing to do with the ethics of a player and his deliberate action of disobeying the laws.

For instance, sealing off at the ruck is something more times than not, are not because of the player deliberately trying to disobey the laws. Sometimes it's that the player comes in at the ruck at a tremendous pace, and either loses his footing or grip, and goes into the ruck in a position to seal off the ball.

For this topic to be taken into consideration, I would suggest we make a list of what are Cheating offences, what are Transgressions, and what are the areas we don't really know in what category to put it in.

And why can't we use Richie Mccaw as an example? I for one don't think he's a cheater. I think he has probably on of the best rugby minds in the world and his ability to read the game and the referee is what makes him stand out. Some say it's cheating, I say it's not. We all try to bend the laws as far as we can without getting in trouble. Sometimes we do, and get fines. In rugby those fines are yellow and red cards and citing hearings...

 

[goodNumber10]

Because it will bring in a ton of NZ'ers defending the #GOAT and the discussion is about the ethics of cheating not the act.

Going off your feet isn't really sealing off, regardless players have a duty to enter the contact area in a way that is safe and playable - it's no different to players clearing out with no arms or supermaning - dish out cards it'll reduce drastically.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Because it will bring in a ton of NZ'ers defending the #GOAT and the discussion is about the ethics of cheating not the act.

Going off your feet isn't really sealing off, regardless players have a duty to enter the contact area in a way that is safe and playable - it's no different to players clearing out with no arms or supermaning - dish out cards it'll reduce drastically.

I'm not a NZ'er, and I will also defend Richie.

There are many factors to consider when a player goes into a ruck. if the ground is slippery, then it certainly has an impact with regard to how the player goes into a ruck, and either sealing off or falling over, or not staying on your feet.

Thuggery and the dishing of cards is all that will stop it in the game. I think the suspension periods should be harsher though. And the leniency of certain countries citing commissioners are what makes this area of the game a joke. Punching a guy repeatedly in the face should IMHO be a ban from rugby for at least 8 weeks. No matter what the mitigating circumstaces are.

But on the topic of cheating. I propose we make a list of what is seen as cheating. Because now it's a very loose term being thrown around and could make for unnecessary comments to be made, or even trolling...

 

[goodNumber10]

But the discussion isn't about what constitutes cheating, it's about the ethics of it in rugby.