Is there an ethics code for rugby??
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Cheating in Rugby
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Is there an ethics code for rugby??
goodNumber10
International
You don't think rugby as a sport prides itself on its ethics?
I'm asking because if there isn't a code of ethics. Then there isn't really guidelines on what is deemed ethical or not.
Cheating doesn't always constitute being unethical.
But if we're talking about what removing deliberate cheating brings to rugby, then we need to consider what deliberate cheating is.
And if we are to consider the ethics of cheating in rugby, then I think you do need to consider what impact deliberate cheating has on the game.
Because, looking at the ethics, here's how I see it -
Is it harmful to others? Most of us don't condone cheating that injures other people and count it as different.
Is it unfair? Both teams can do it and know it's likely to happen, so I don't think it is.
Does it make the game worse?
And I don't think it does so notably. Most of the examples you picked out come from rucks, but a huge amount of ruck infringements are accidental and there's enough ways to accidentally infringe there that everyone being on their very best behaviour would still leave it a mess. I'll give you the offside line - although we've all seen the hits that looked offside but were genuinely just someone being that quick off the mark - but I don't think the game would be notably more attractive to watch.
The worst thing to do say about the current condoned status of a certain brand of cheating in rugby is it presents a poor moral example for life in general. 'Don't get caught and all is ok' mightn't exactly be the life lesson you want your kids to get. But there's huge amounts of all sorts of moral examples out there and I don't think anyone bases their outlook solely on how rugby games are reffed.
In summation - I don't see the moral problem.
And if we are to consider the ethics of cheating in rugby, then I think you do need to consider what impact deliberate cheating has on the game.
Because, looking at the ethics, here's how I see it -
Is it harmful to others? Most of us don't condone cheating that injures other people and count it as different.
Is it unfair? Both teams can do it and know it's likely to happen, so I don't think it is.
Does it make the game worse?
And I don't think it does so notably. Most of the examples you picked out come from rucks, but a huge amount of ruck infringements are accidental and there's enough ways to accidentally infringe there that everyone being on their very best behaviour would still leave it a mess. I'll give you the offside line - although we've all seen the hits that looked offside but were genuinely just someone being that quick off the mark - but I don't think the game would be notably more attractive to watch.
The worst thing to do say about the current condoned status of a certain brand of cheating in rugby is it presents a poor moral example for life in general. 'Don't get caught and all is ok' mightn't exactly be the life lesson you want your kids to get. But there's huge amounts of all sorts of moral examples out there and I don't think anyone bases their outlook solely on how rugby games are reffed.
In summation - I don't see the moral problem.
It's more than just morality. To say something is unethical means that every rugby player has to swear some sort of oath. Where they swear that they will not do this or that. Ethics is a code of conduct, a set of laws all on its own.
And I haven't seen any indication of it.
goodNumber10
International
yet you did all that without defining what an act of cheating specifically is.
And I have asked you to make a list, which you also haven't done yet. Yet you are fixated on the point of ethics, even though your topic is about cheating in Rugby.
goodNumber10
International
nope.
Nor will you, we have laws stepping outside of them is a moral/ethical choice.
I actually found 3 links that has some sort of code of ethics with regard to rugby:
http://www.rugby.com.au/rugbylink/PolicyRegister/CodeofConduct.aspx
http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/irfu_code_of_ethics.pdf
http://images.supersport.com/content/Code%20of%20Conduct%20SARU%20August%202013.pdf
http://www.rugby.com.au/rugbylink/PolicyRegister/CodeofConduct.aspx
http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/irfu_code_of_ethics.pdf
http://images.supersport.com/content/Code%20of%20Conduct%20SARU%20August%202013.pdf
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goodNumber10
International
they are both squad behaviour COE's though.
But World Rugby's COE states this:
Adherence to the Laws of the game, Regulations relating to the game, and the spirit of fair play remains fundamental to the proper administartion and preservation of the game in the modern era.
http://www.worldrugby.org/wr-resources/World_Rugby_Handbook/EN/index.html#/298/
Additionally the mission statment of World Rugby is such:
Rugby is played throughout the world by men and women, boys and girls. Players are attracted to Rugby because of its unique character-building values.
Our sport is built upon the principles of camaraderie, fair play, respect and teamwork. Every player knows these principles are more important than winning or losing.
From the earliest steps in our sport, players are taught the basics of playing fair, enjoying the game and respecting the officials and opponents alike.
And most importantly the playing charter: http://laws.worldrugby.org/?charter=all
Spirit
Rugby owes much of its appeal to the fact that it is played both to the letter and within the Spirit of the Laws. The responsibility for ensuring that this happens lies not with one individual - it involves coaches, captains, players and referees.
It is through discipline, control and mutual respect that the Spirit of the Game flourishes and, in the context of a Game as physically challenging as Rugby, these are the qualities which forge the fellowship and sense of fair play so essential to the Game’s ongoing success and survival.
Old fashioned traditions and virtues they may be, but they have stood the test of time and, at all levels at which the Game is played, they remain as important to Rugby’s future as they have been throughout its long and distinguished past. The principles of Rugby are the fundamental elements upon which the Game is based and they enable participants to immediately identify the Game’s character and what makes it distinctive as a sport.
Think that is pretty clearly a guiding set of principles in defining the ethics of fair play within our sport.
Thanx for those links.
So now that we have established that there are codes of conducts, we can now focus on the topic with regard to cheating. And once again, I don't like this word as I think it's a bit vague on what exactly you want to discuss.
You started this thread through what was said in the NZ vs. Oz Bledisloe 2 game thread. So why don't we use that as an entry point in discussing the issue at hand.
So now that we have established that there are codes of conducts, we can now focus on the topic with regard to cheating. And once again, I don't like this word as I think it's a bit vague on what exactly you want to discuss.
You started this thread through what was said in the NZ vs. Oz Bledisloe 2 game thread. So why don't we use that as an entry point in discussing the issue at hand.
goodNumber10
International
there is nothing vague about it, do you condone cheating - cheating being consciousely breaking the laws/bending the rules as defined by World Rugby.
I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand, we don't need to define acts, nor what it is - just answer do you accept that bending the rules is ok or do you think the game would be better if everyone played o the letter of the law.
No need to get agitated...
Some of the things are okay to me and some aren't. The problem is that the laws allow these acts to happen.
Nobody acts to the letter of the law, so that's not really a point to use...
goodNumber10
International
that is the exact point at discussion though.
Put aside what you find acceptable, and what it is... do you think cheating, regardless of what exactly it is, is ok if you don't get caught?
It doesn't help you ask the same question in a different way and expect me to answer it differently.
There are different degrees to "cheating" and some is okay, and some is not...
There are a few bad habits I think coaches and experienced players do try and instill that are certainly contrary to what I see as fair play and good sportmanship. I might be a bit naive here (I know I can drop the 'might') but I'd love to see players actually try and adhere to the rules of the game as far as they can IE not try and see what they can get away with. I truly feel we'd see better rubgy being played as we'd see quicker ball from rucks, less stoppages for scrums and less injuries so our best players available more of the time.
I understand the game has gone pro and even in the 'good old days' (or especially in the good old days?) there was a tendency to push the rules. I just can't help but feel rugby was close to its best ~2010 when refs were quite hard-up at ruck infringements.
Here I'm talking about all of it though for the most part we've avoided going full dive all of Habana, Huget, SBW, Folau and Sanchez have been guilty of diving at test level quite recently. No sanction against any of them either on field or off. These are deliberate attempts at misleading the refereee. Then there is the pushing of the envelope at scrum seeing what you can get away with and critically ruck infringements; going beyond the tackled player, falling over deliberately, hands in, coming in offside, deliberate sealing etc etc. It's such a critical aspect of play and so difficult to officiate it needs players to take some initiative in policing themselves or at least not going at it with the mindset of deliberately trying to see how far they can push the envelope. I also think stricter sanctions should play a part here, maybe advance 10m with the penalty or quicker cards even if we can introduce a card just a step down from the yellow or at the very least post game citations where a player has clearly and consistently gone for comitting pro fouls. First though we need to sort out the citing system as its a bit of a farce as is with little to no credibility in my eyes.
Onto injuries and here I know for a fact many coaches in SA at schools level (at least in my day) instructed players to deliberately have a go at key players early. Noy necessarily to injure but to rattle. I feel this is fair to some degree and I did it myself; chasing the kick off from the wing position I always tried to get man and ball and put in as hard a tackle as I could. Fair enough IMO when you get it right but and I regret it now, you get the timing wrong as often as not when you commit yourself to that degree. Where it goes over the line is when its off the ball. We had a big inside center who would always put in as hard a hit on the opposition 10 as early as possible and if it was late or shoulder only no problem. My feeling now that I have kids myself is that Rugby is a sport and the contact element is great to a point the focus should be on playing the ball and keeping the sport a sport as far as possible. I know though what the rugby culture is like in SA and despite my passion for the sport I'd actually try to dissuade my boy to play as it is (if he were old enough) and rather take up something 'safer' with a better chance at a longer carreer and better money to boot. I know I'm not alone in this and the sport can lose talents because of it in areas wher rugby has been a traditional and struggle to gain a foothold in countries/areas that rugby is not a traditional sport nevermind how the percieved inconsistencies in handling a game can confuse the hell out of even 'educated' fans and where 'minnow' nations are more likely to draw the short end.
I understand the game has gone pro and even in the 'good old days' (or especially in the good old days?) there was a tendency to push the rules. I just can't help but feel rugby was close to its best ~2010 when refs were quite hard-up at ruck infringements.
Here I'm talking about all of it though for the most part we've avoided going full dive all of Habana, Huget, SBW, Folau and Sanchez have been guilty of diving at test level quite recently. No sanction against any of them either on field or off. These are deliberate attempts at misleading the refereee. Then there is the pushing of the envelope at scrum seeing what you can get away with and critically ruck infringements; going beyond the tackled player, falling over deliberately, hands in, coming in offside, deliberate sealing etc etc. It's such a critical aspect of play and so difficult to officiate it needs players to take some initiative in policing themselves or at least not going at it with the mindset of deliberately trying to see how far they can push the envelope. I also think stricter sanctions should play a part here, maybe advance 10m with the penalty or quicker cards even if we can introduce a card just a step down from the yellow or at the very least post game citations where a player has clearly and consistently gone for comitting pro fouls. First though we need to sort out the citing system as its a bit of a farce as is with little to no credibility in my eyes.
Onto injuries and here I know for a fact many coaches in SA at schools level (at least in my day) instructed players to deliberately have a go at key players early. Noy necessarily to injure but to rattle. I feel this is fair to some degree and I did it myself; chasing the kick off from the wing position I always tried to get man and ball and put in as hard a tackle as I could. Fair enough IMO when you get it right but and I regret it now, you get the timing wrong as often as not when you commit yourself to that degree. Where it goes over the line is when its off the ball. We had a big inside center who would always put in as hard a hit on the opposition 10 as early as possible and if it was late or shoulder only no problem. My feeling now that I have kids myself is that Rugby is a sport and the contact element is great to a point the focus should be on playing the ball and keeping the sport a sport as far as possible. I know though what the rugby culture is like in SA and despite my passion for the sport I'd actually try to dissuade my boy to play as it is (if he were old enough) and rather take up something 'safer' with a better chance at a longer carreer and better money to boot. I know I'm not alone in this and the sport can lose talents because of it in areas wher rugby has been a traditional and struggle to gain a foothold in countries/areas that rugby is not a traditional sport nevermind how the percieved inconsistencies in handling a game can confuse the hell out of even 'educated' fans and where 'minnow' nations are more likely to draw the short end.
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goodNumber10
International
I'm not asking a different question i'm rephrasing it as you don't seem to understand the original question.
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great post
Mcfadden
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That's what I was trying to get at on page 1 of this thread before it got brushed off. Who is actually going to lead that charge? Because as I explained, if you do not do some of these things, or in some way make an attempt to slow the ball down then you are going to be left behind in the dust. Your opponents will be doing it, and you'll just be standing there like a fool "oh well, at least I was a good boy."
Of course at the forefront of anything should be skill, strategy, strength, endurance, ability. That's why we employ so many specialist coaches, dietary regimes, and look abroad for innovative fitness solutions. It's not like that doesn't factor in, of course it does. It's the primary thing. If you don't have the natural ability, then forget it. But there is always going to be some bending of the rules. You have to spin a bottle top and see where it lands, see what mileage you can get out of the officiating. For better or worse, that's just how it works. And I cannot begrudge players for doing that. They take that risk, they know how it could end up, and I have known plenty of New Zealand coaches who work directly on reducing the penalty rate. But it's always going to be part of the game.
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I see a world of difference between pushing the boundaries of what is allowed at tackle/ruck, which contains many shades of grey, and acts of Unfair Play, where there are less shades of grey, to Foul and Dangerous play where its mostly black and white.
1. Cheating such as playing the ball while off your feet, or entering the tackle from the side, or not releasing the player or the ball is often down to referee interpreation as to timing and/or direction. Different referees have different levels of tolerance, and materiality often comes into the equation.
2. Cheating such as pulling a chaser's jersey or grabbing a player early or obstruction is less down to interpretation and more down to observation. I see it as more serious than 1 above.
3. Striking, kicking, stomping, biting, bag-snatching, eye-gouging and head-butting are the most serious of all and ought to be eliminated from the game. IMO, player doing any of these acts ought to be automatically red carded and be sidelined for period of several weeks
1. Cheating such as playing the ball while off your feet, or entering the tackle from the side, or not releasing the player or the ball is often down to referee interpreation as to timing and/or direction. Different referees have different levels of tolerance, and materiality often comes into the equation.
2. Cheating such as pulling a chaser's jersey or grabbing a player early or obstruction is less down to interpretation and more down to observation. I see it as more serious than 1 above.
3. Striking, kicking, stomping, biting, bag-snatching, eye-gouging and head-butting are the most serious of all and ought to be eliminated from the game. IMO, player doing any of these acts ought to be automatically red carded and be sidelined for period of several weeks
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