Cheetahs & Kings thread

[Groundhog]

I read somewhere that Cheetahs and Kings will have to juggle Pro14 and Currie Cup in parallel. That's going to be tough and will test their squad depth.

They're doing it as of right now. It will go on to the 28th of October, the same day Cheetahs play Zebre in round 7. No idea how good either sides Currie Cup team is though.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I read somewhere that Cheetahs and Kings will have to juggle Pro14 and Currie Cup in parallel. That's going to be tough and will test their squad depth.

It's just the Cheetahs that's playing Currie Cup and Pro14 at the same time. The Kings doesn't have a Currie Cup team per se. The EP Elephants are playing in the first division tournament though.

It certainly is testing the Cheetahs' depth. And up to the start of the Pro14 the Currie Cup side was unbeaten. They have lost a couple of games since then though.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Cheetahs' B team are getting murdered in Currie Cup and their 1st team not getting any lighter treatment on tour. Its a bad start for both the Cheetahs and Kings. I expected as much from the Kings who have a whole new squad of fringe players other unions could spare with only a few weeks notice. I did expect more from the Cheetahs (not winning necessarily but at least scoring a few tries and getting a BP or two and keep the margins respectable) but have to admit its not just them going poorly but the teams they are playing are doing better than I'd have thought so early in their season which actually I am thrilled about since the only reason- literally the only reason- our countrymen are scared of with a move North is/was the perception that the rugby and fitness is of a poorer standard.

 

[Amiga500]

since the only reason- literally the only reason- our countrymen are scared of with a move North is/was the perception that the rugby and fitness is of a poorer standard.

Well, they are in the toughest league in Europe.


If they were in the Frogs tripe14 or the RoastBeef Aviva Premierhype, it'd be a drudgery, both teams would likely have 2x TBP wins each by now.

 

[Big_Grumper]

It'll certainly test their squad strength. Perhaps I'm being naive but what's the benefit for both teams in competing in these competitions if the reality is that their squads will be slim and the likelihood of injuries is high?

 

[SomeOke]

It'll certainly test their squad strength. Perhaps I'm being naive but what's the benefit for both teams in competing in these competitions if the reality is that their squads will be slim and the likelihood of injuries is high?

It's just a matter of this being the first year in the competition I'm sure.
Everything happened so quickly their was no real chance of backing out, hopefully we can structure it better next year.

 

[Big_Grumper]

I guess so. I hope they come out stronger for it. I love the fact that two Springbok teams are competing in a NH completion.

 

[higgik]

Adding the Griquas and Pumas to make a pro16 would make a decent competition.

There could be 4 conferences of 4, SA, Ire, Wales and Scot/Italy.

Play home and away in conference, keeping local derbies, (6 matches)
Play every other team just once home or away, (12 matches)

This would still mean a two week tour in SA for teams, so keeps costs the same there, keeps the local derbies, but most importantly it reduces the number of games by 3 weeks, meaning less overlap with the international matches.

It also means that player welfare will be easier, and teams will have their internationals for more matches.

The play off would be the top team from each conference to keep the interest across all regions, and the next 2 best records; top 2 conference winners would get byes in week one of the play offs.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

When does the Currie Cup finish and would there be any barriers to some of the better Currie Cup players joining the Kings? I'd speculate that the SARU will make an effort to bolster the Kings if they don't improve soon. Zebre do appear much improved, but that was a shocking result.

The excellent welsh magazine show Scrum V praised the SARU for prioritising the Cheetahs Pro14 side over the Currie Cup side, but are there any players used by the Cheetahs in this Currie Cup campaign we should look forward to seeing at the end of that tournament? Glad to see this Stapelberg lad was able to make the step up at flyhalf and give the Cheetahs some structure.

 

[unrated]

When does the Currie Cup finish and would there be any barriers to some of the better Currie Cup players joining the Kings? I'd speculate that the SARU will make an effort to bolster the Kings if they don't improve soon. Zebre do appear much improved, but that was a shocking result.

The excellent welsh magazine show Scrum V praised the SARU for prioritising the Cheetahs Pro14 side over the Currie Cup side, but are there any players used by the Cheetahs in this Currie Cup campaign we should look forward to seeing at the end of that tournament? Glad to see this Stapelberg lad was able to make the step up at flyhalf and give the Cheetahs some structure.

There are only 2-3 group stage matches left for Most Currie cup sides. The Cheetahs CC team can still make the finals series if they can win another game.

I don't think there will be barriers for other CC sides to sell or loan players to the Cheetahs and Kings once the CC has been completed. The real question is will the Pro 14 allow mid season transfers? Can team buy and add new players any time of the season.

With the Cheetahs they have already moved around the players between both teams as soon as the cheetahs home leg of the pro 14 started.
Luther Obi (the one who scored the last intercept try vs Leinster) was not part of the touring squad to Europe and impressed in the CC before being called up for round 3 and 4 of the Pro 14. The Cheetahs just won with their B side in the CC keeping their playoff hopes alive. I'm sure if they continue to improve then the Cheetahs pro 14 squad will have nice depth once the CC has ended.

 

[Amiga500]

The real question is will the Pro 14 allow mid season transfers?

Never been an issue before. Irish provinces have had mid-season medical jokers from their unions so they can get someone shifted in. The issue there has never been the league, but permission from the IRFU. I think Glasgow and Edinburgh had a bit of mid-season movement between themselves a couple of years back too.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Adding the Griquas and Pumas to make a pro16 would make a decent competition.

There could be 4 conferences of 4, SA, Ire, Wales and Scot/Italy.

Play home and away in conference, keeping local derbies, (6 matches)
Play every other team just once home or away, (12 matches)

This would still mean a two week tour in SA for teams, so keeps costs the same there, keeps the local derbies, but most importantly it reduces the number of games by 3 weeks, meaning less overlap with the international matches.

It also means that player welfare will be easier, and teams will have their internationals for more matches.

The play off would be the top team from each conference to keep the interest across all regions, and the next 2 best records; top 2 conference winners would get byes in week one of the play offs.

Less travel for South African teams too with them only having to travel to Europe for 6 games. Fewer games helps player welfare and we'd see full strength sides for a higher percentage of games. More South African teams would boost the size of the TV contracts coming to the league. I do take the point that Kimberley and Nelspruit aren't major international cities but think the financial positives of adding Griquas and Pumas would outweigh the negatives.

Keeping the league in roughly the same time zone makes far more sense than adding an American team. I believe the best way to gain a foothold in the US is by playing more full internationals there like the huge drawing NZ v Ireland game last November. Leinster v Houston doesn't really whet the appetite in comparison, does it?

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I think the Pro14 will bend over backwards to allow anything that will accelerate the Kings development. I'd imagine the SARU would also be very keen so hopefully we see some major moves by the start of November (although looking at Conference B that will probably already be too late).

The Japanese Top League appears to finish at the end of the year, so I don't know if they could lure back Lionel Cronje for 2018.

 

[TRF_heineken]

When does the Currie Cup finish

The Currie Cup final is on 28 October 2017.

and would there be any barriers to some of the better Currie Cup players joining the Kings? I'd speculate that the SARU will make an effort to bolster the Kings if they don't improve soon. Zebre do appear much improved, but that was a shocking result.

Well, in South Africa the teams are usually allowed to do transfers in the month of October. Usually because the Super Rugby Teams start with their preparation for the upcoming season in November, while the Springboks are on the EOYT.

I think that there might be a few signings for both the Cheetahs and the Kings, should they be allowed to add to their squads, but that would mean the new players will only be part of the group from November onwards.

I also wouldn't be surprized if the Cheetahs manage to get some of their old players back now that they are more financially secure.

The excellent welsh magazine show Scrum V praised the SARU for prioritising the Cheetahs Pro14 side over the Currie Cup side, but are there any players used by the Cheetahs in this Currie Cup campaign we should look forward to seeing at the end of that tournament? Glad to see this Stapelberg lad was able to make the step up at flyhalf and give the Cheetahs some structure.

Yeah, Stapelberg really impressed me, and he has a very good boot, even for those long distance kicks. It's great to see what the Cheetahs can do when they have a fly half that can add structure to their game.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Was away for a bit and missed the games but pleasantly surprised the Cheetahs managed a win. Seemingly deserved as well as far as I am reading. Poor Kings though Zebre do seem to be more of a handful than I'd have imagined pre-season.

End of Currie Cup cannot come soon enough for the Kings' Pro14 effort. As others have said I too can see SARU bend over backwards to try and give Davids more player resources. I do feel like that is the main issue. There are of course numerous others as these teams are making due as best they can having been dealt a tough hand. Kings more so of course since they lost their entire player roster. Lionel Cronje has indicated he is sorry to have left the Kings but signed a contract in Japan before these deals were on the cards, He went on saying he'd love to come back as soon as he is avaiable and would want to 'give back' to the province/franchise. Can't remember where I read it though. Think it was in a magazine.

Is Chris Cloete still on his way to Munster? I'd have thought to see him play Pro14 but he is MVP at the Pumas ATM.

On the Pumas, I am all for SA having 4 in Pro Rugby. It makes the tournament more symmetrical. My support comes with two rather large assumptions though. That we manage to retain our players better and that we also see stability in teams not hopping around from tournament to tournament. We owe stability and competitiveness to our partners in both hemispheres as well as to our fans and players. I believe SARU knows this. To get there is the tricky business.

As for my 2 cents in which teams that might be;

Pumas are an easy shout. As is they are a decent team with a sustainable home base. Griquas though... this might sound bias with me living in the Cape but who wants to go near Kimberley? Is the region sustainable in a rugby sense when it hardly is sustainable in any other sector? Especially when you consider that WP bleeds rugby players to not only the rest of SA but the world and the Cape and surrounds are just more attractive as destinations for visiting teams and fans, for players as residence and then you just know a game in Cape Town stadium will draw a minimum of 30000 fans. That's why SARU sends the odd job Bok matches our way (besides 2017 when last did we host the Kiwis?) because they know we'll pitch up regardless. And I'm not talking about Stormers/WP. If Boland were allowed to properly come out from under WP/Stormers' (aka Wakefield's) ass we would be all conquering. Either Boland, a new Euro focused team based in the Cape proper (Stellenbosch or Northern suburb areas) or then the Eagles based out of George. The region hosted the IRB 7s well and the market is still there. Anywhere but Kimberley IMO. I know they do better on the rugby pitch as is but that is due to Boland and SWD having no reason to invest since they aren't part of any broader framework. As regions though their grass roots produce way more talent (which gets diverted elsewhere) and they are IMO better suited long term having bigger and more dynamic populations and are more accessible to boot.

 

[higgik]

Borland could be a shout due to location, but think SARU, have their mind set on 8 franchises spread around the country
Bulls, Lions, Cheetahs, Pumas, Griquas, Kings, Stormers, Sharks
4 playing SR and 4 in Pro 14.
Players can then move between competitions if needed, for example playing back from injury.

 

[Groundhog]

Is Chris Cloete still on his way to Munster? I'd have thought to see him play Pro14 but he is MVP at the Pumas ATM.

Cloete will arrive when his CC commitments are finished. He'll probably get a decent break too.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Borland could be a shout due to location, but think SARU, have their mind set on 8 franchises spread around the country
Bulls, Lions, Cheetahs, Pumas, Griquas, Kings, Stormers, Sharks
4 playing SR and 4 in Pro 14.
Players can then move between competitions if needed, for example playing back from injury.

I can fully understand spreading it around the country but IMO that should be done to a population, demographic and economic and most importantly looking at future development and sustainability as a framework and not purely geographically which Kimberley would be IMO.

A better bet would be getting in on a bigger urban center or tap into the fact that places like Cape Town and Jo'Burg have a huge and very varied population. To give an example Kimberley is at 387,741 isolated and not growing population and then there are numerous other with around the 1,5 million strong population that arent represented in major tournaments. Polokawane and Rustenburg both fit this bill and aren't close to other major centers. I can't even begin to list the cities around the 900 000 mark that would be a better fit than Kimberley ITO the base. The only going for Kimberley is the Griquas are semi competitive as is ITO their rugby. It just seems lazy and short sighted to me to not look at development rather.

Cloete will arrive when his CC commitments are finished. He'll probably get a decent break too.

Great signing that. I was semi miffed when he didn't get regular game with WP in the Currie Cup. He moved on and I got the idea we were gonna lose out as he was the only out and out fetcher WP had on our books (something Allister Coetzee didn't put much stock in). His break out season with the Kings confirmed my suspicions.

 

[treatycity]

Hi Guys, newbie on here, watching cloete and he has been phenomenal, things are hotting up in the Pro 14 and Cheetahs could be in with a shout for playoffs.
Booked for Bloem and will be there in Munster Jersey ( again)
was at the Cheetahs Highlanders game last may, now there was a brain farting last five minutes of a game they should never have lost.

 

[profitius]

This is interesting. German billionaire and Stade Francis owner, Hans Peter Wild, has visited the Southern Kings.

https://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/PRO14/billionaire-pays-kings-a-visit-20180116