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Club World Cup

They did this in match fishing (don't laugh I'm too old to flank anymore and I need something else to be competitive). You have your normal world and European competitions then they started one where all the top team from each country would compete in a club one. Proved very successful England's own Barnsley blacks have won it a couple of times. Difference being every single European country with exception has a top level angling league were as rugby . ...
 
Fair enough. If i pointed fingers at you i apologize. I was making a generalization.

I just perceive a massive, MASSIVE underestimation of the crusaders here. Gargantuan.
Again, hardly perfect or irrefutable evidence, i know, but ask bulls' fans who they'd rather face. Or Stormers.

One season, ONE SINGLE SEASON was all it took for the best SA teams (bulls, stormers, sharks and lions (apologies to cheetahs and kings, but that's unfortunately true)) to get two of them to the competition's final.

I can't see any (intellectually honest) bulls, sharks or stormers fans arguing they would like their odds against crusaders in 2022.

And let's not even get into things like consistency etc. They've lost only a handful of games since 2017 and every one of them is a nailbiter. So much that the only tournament they didn't win was 2021's trans tasman where

- they won all their games
- those who advanced to the final never faced the crusaders

They basically had to adjust SR's format to level the playing field. And i'm not taking about opposition like zebre or dragons.


This conversation makes me a bit uncomfortable as i probably come across as a saders rabid fan. Nothing could be further from the truth. But i find it hard to believe we are actually questioning whether they are the best club level team in the planet.
look, on the surface you are not wrong...but i also think you are conflating the crusaders dynasty/legacy with their current squad. they lost to the chiefs, blues and waratahs this year, two of those at home

the crusaders are much like the current AB's, they CAN.....wipe the floor with almost anyone....BUT....they also have more weaknesses than we've seen before, and so a team that has the right game plan and executes it well can win comfortably....
 
Fair enough. If i pointed fingers at you i apologize. I was making a generalization.

I just perceive a massive, MASSIVE underestimation of the crusaders here. Gargantuan.
Again, hardly perfect or irrefutable evidence, i know, but ask bulls' fans who they'd rather face. Or Stormers.

One season, ONE SINGLE SEASON was all it took for the best SA teams (bulls, stormers, sharks and lions (apologies to cheetahs and kings, but that's unfortunately true)) to get two of them to the competition's final.

I can't see any (intellectually honest) bulls, sharks or stormers fans arguing they would like their odds against crusaders in 2022.

And let's not even get into things like consistency etc. They've lost only a handful of games since 2017 and every one of them is a nailbiter. So much that the only tournament they didn't win was 2021's trans tasman where

- they won all their games
- those who advanced to the final never faced the crusaders

They basically had to adjust SR's format to level the playing field. And i'm not taking about opposition like zebre or dragons.


This conversation makes me a bit uncomfortable as i probably come across as a saders rabid fan. Nothing could be further from the truth. But i find it hard to believe we are actually questioning whether they are the best club level team in the planet.
Well I definitely respect your view but I'm not seeing anything particularly strong in your argument that would lead me to change mine.

The consistency argument isn't really that relevant unless you can say that super rugby is the better tournament compared to the european cup. Leinster have been pretty consistent in pro 14 apart from a one point loss to the bulls where frankly I doubt they were up to it and the bulls are just the type of team, unlike the crusaders, that Leinster struggles against.

European cup? Sure they've lost to the winner a number of times now but I really don't think that's an inferior competition to super rugby, especially at the moment. We aren't living in the rennie, Joseph, Boyd, days or the days we were tested by South African opposition (not that any can attack like Leinster, not even the lions - although it's worth mentioning they would have beaten the crusaders if not for a red card). Europe actually defends.

And if you want to go off evidence that isn't just judgment based on what we observe, then you hear about those differences in defence from players, eg James Lowe saying The defence at Leinster is a completely different level (and Wayne smith was his defence coach at the chiefs), or Rob Kearney saying the main difference between European and super rugby (or at least Leinster and the force) is that I'm europe they spend half their training time on defence whereas in super rugby it's a minor after thought. Funny then that leinster is still far better in structured attack than any super rugby team.

I can't quote anyone right now, but you do hear the likes of isa nacewa and others saying European rugby is stronger than super rugby right now. Even the typically blind commentators in NZ are starting to acknowledge when they on the very odd occasion watch European rugby that the quality level is high and perhaps they have now surpassed us.

And then you look at the micro details. When I watch the best teams in Europe, both international and club level, they are just so efficient and well organised in terms of securing breakdowns, driving over the ruck, and securing the ball, but especially Leinster. Against some pretty good opposition like Toulouse Leinster can get lightning quick ball, much quicker than any of the crusaders opposition, and against high quality defence that the crusaders don't possess. The crusaders are probably the best NZ team at this, but their opposition can be terrible, so you can hardly say the crusaders record means much in terms of whether they'd beat Leinster. The chiefs are awful, they flop over and seal the ball. But they really should have beaten the crusaders in the semi this year given the opportunities they had. With a **** attack. Imagine what a good attack would do.

And then you look more into the detail of how the crusaders win. So often it's mounga doing something brilliant. The type of brilliant thing that he has be en totally incapable of against good rush defence, which he hasn't faced in super rugby but has faced in internationals (even when playing for the crusaders - against the British and Irish lions). And to further that regarding your arguments for crusaders players being great- look at how they've fared for the all blacks in situations where you can't fully blame the coach - their ability to challenge a ruck, their ability to dominate tackles, their ability to make ground. The likes of Ethan blackadder , after being The standout forward in super rugby last year, looked completely out of his depth against Ireland. Cody Taylor was easily the worst player on either team in any game of the series this year, missing a ridiculous amount of tackles on top of just being generally ineffective.

That'll do for now
 
conflating the crusaders dynasty/legacy
Nah. I did that on purpose. Call it dramatic impetus!

I am aware the crusaders were not in 2022 what they were, dunno, in 2018. Granted. I still believe they are the best club/franchise in the world
Have a look: https://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/the-problem-of-leinster-dominance.48403/#post-1089696

the crusaders are much like the current AB's, they CAN.....wipe the floor with almost anyone....BUT....they also have more weaknesses than we've seen before, and so a team that has the right game plan and executes it well can win comfortably....
I dont think so. I am not sure how to explain it eloquently but maybe it has to do with composure under pressure and desperation when they are behind. Don't get me wrong, they are not invincible, but they are a very, very, very hard nut crack and i don't think there is a single team in the world that has the tools to do so consistently (more than half the times to be precise).
The game they lost against the blues comes to mind. The talent is there, the motivation is there, the coaching is there. Sure, they can have a bad day, but you need a bad day from them and an almost extraordinary day from their opponents for them to lose. That is quite a fair description of what the best team should be.

Let me put it this way: I don't see any club in the world today that faces 2022's crusaders 10 times on neutral ground and beats them 6 times. Not one.
 
some fake rivalry between the northern and Southern Hemispheres
If it's fake, why do NH and SH fans keep bringing up which hemisphere is better?

The criticism of too many games is fair, but one single game more isn't going to change that dramatically.

Maybe this is a hot take but if I'm honest I'm also failing to care if a rugby player plays too many games. Kinda not my problem at all as a fan of the game. Professional sport is first and foremost entertainment, else no one would spend money on it. I want to see big stupid blokes smash into each other at high speed but still have the skill to play ball. The more games the better.
 
About the topic, i am a bit surprised about the responses. I would LOVE to see this.
It brings back so many memories. Old sentimental crap ahead, i warn you. Stop reading. Stop reading i tell you!

Not that long ago, footie had a comp called the intercontinental cup. Basically the winner of Champions league and the Libertadores cup (the cup the CL was based on). Best of Europe vs best in South America. One game, winner takes all in Japan (wasn't always like this).

Agree 100%. It's a completely valid question to ask: "Who is the best rugby club in the world?"

Interesting you bring up football as I'm on team Club World Cup there as well. The dynamics are a bit different but there are plenty of parallels. The dominant continent (Europe) doesn't want the CWC because it's a threat to their status quo (European Cup). The fans of these clubs won't outright admit this, instead making poor excuses like "muh player welfare, too many games bro," as if squad rotation doesn't exist.

As a huge fan of South American football I share your excitement for those historic intercontinental / club world cup games of the past (even if I wasn't alive at the time, I can teleport mentally through the memories of older fans and of course old footage).
 
If it's fake, why do NH and SH fans keep bringing up which hemisphere is better?

The criticism of too many games is fair, but one single game more isn't going to change that dramatically.

Maybe this is a hot take but if I'm honest I'm also failing to care if a rugby player plays too many games. Kinda not my problem at all as a fan of the game. Professional sport is first and foremost entertainment, else no one would spend money on it. I want to see big stupid blokes smash into each other at high speed but still have the skill to play ball. The more games the better.
Ive played and watched rugby my entire life and I've never heard anyone ask about best club in the world apart from the odd person on here. In reality the majority of people don't care, most NH fans don't care at all about the SH club game from my experience.

I'd almost bet my mortgage that most fans in the uk would rather watch a traditional derby like tigers - saints or bath vs Gloucester etc compared to Leinster vs crusaders or some French team vs a New Zealand club side. There is no history there and no bad blood to create a rivalry.

As for players playing too many games, they are people at the end of the day. Every job has a duty of care to look after their employees and I'd argue that rugby is already failing on that in some areas. We need to be empathetic to that rather than pushing these players who don't even get paid that much.
 
Ive played and watched rugby my entire life and I've never heard anyone ask about best club in the world apart from the odd person on here. In reality the majority of people don't care, most NH fans don't care at all about the SH club game from my experience.

I'd almost bet my mortgage that most fans in the uk would rather watch a traditional derby like tigers - saints or bath vs Gloucester etc compared to Leinster vs crusaders or some French team vs a New Zealand club side. There is no history there and no bad blood to create a rivalry.
Doesn't change the fact that the question is valid. I'm pretty sure similar concerns were raised before the inauguration of the World Cup in '87. Do you want to scrap the WC too? What about the Heineken/European Cup? Saracens v Leinster? No history there until recently either.

As for players playing too many games, they are people at the end of the day. Every job has a duty of care to look after their employees and I'd argue that rugby is already failing on that in some areas. We need to be empathetic to that rather than pushing these players who don't even get paid that much.
Okay fair point, my comments about player welfare were a bit facetious. It does come down to money. More money means more professionalism and bigger squads without sacrificing quality. We've already seen that though with European clubs. Talent pool is bigger. That allows for rotation while maintaining quality.

The people who want to see the CWC have an appreciation for the global game. I never used to watch NH club rugby ever. Then Ireland beat NZ in Chicago and Dublin. All of a sudden I'm hearing about Leinster. Now I'm watching Leinster, Toulouse, Racing, Saracens etc. It follows naturally that we want to see if the hype is true and these teams can compete with (or as some think are better than) the Crusaders and the Blues.
 
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Reading in the Times that a quadrennial competition starting in 2025 involving 16 teams from both hemispheres is close to being agreed. Eight from Heineken Champions Cup, seven from Super Rugby and one Japanese. The detail sounds a bit convoluted.

Being a dinosaur I want to see less cross border stuff, not more. But I guess if the money men think it wi
 
@sky5656 are you meaning to just quote people or were to trying to actually say something in reply?
 
Japan again making noises about wanting to hook up with SR after the domestic competitions had ended. I don't know if that would be in addition to the Club World Cup or instead of.

 

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