Controversial rugby opinions

[Derpus]

I agree top 5 is pushing it but you could list 6 players who started in that 2011 final that could be in conversation of better player than Carter. Team was frigging stacked.

Conrad Smith
Ma'a Nonu
Kieran Read
Richard McCaw
Jerome Kaino
Sam Whitelock


I know this controversial opinion thread but I've always felt that St. Johnny and Carter were massively overrated by their backers. Just kinda fell into the first fly halves to benefit professionalism in a key a position.

Eh, I've never seen as complete a flyhalf as Carter since his retirement. If you wanted to go nuts I'd say McCaw was actually the overrated one of that lot. He was a great leader but even in his era I thought there were better opensides.

 

[stus768]

Amateur rugby in the heat is completely fine? I would suggest far more manageable than professional rugby.

It's not the heat it's more state of the pitches. My clubs is so hard the last couple of games of the season were terrible to play on and would've been called off if they were frozen to the same hardness. Also ours and lots of other clubs get taken over by cricket pitches from now until September and difficult to share.

Pro clubs obvs shouldn't have these issues as can water their pitches.

 

[saulan]

Dan Carter still stands out to me in my head of best ever rugby player and I'll join the bandwagon of not seeing Du Pont as the GOAT yet. He was very well rounded, deadly with converting points with his boot and had consistency in his performance and showed BMT in crucial games in his career, getting MoTM for the 2015 RWC final and in the 2016 Top 14 final when he was in the late stages of his career (ignoring his successes in Super Rugby and the Tri Nations).

He often seemed like the difference between the Springboks and New Zealand. We could match up and fight with our forwards, but never had a fly half that came close to his all round skill combined with kicking accuracy… plus he terrorized us in Super Rugby.

I do think potentially there is some NH/SH bias here as we got a lot of exposure to Carter in Super Rugby and Tri Nations, whereas the perspectives from the north on him were more muted unless you followed those tournaments or perhaps caught those autumn internationals.

Meanwhile for us in the SH, we haven't really experienced or felt much pain being inflicted by Dupont as he doesn't come on SH international tours (I think the last one he was on was the 2017 tour of SA) and there isn't a huge amount of club crossover. He has a great record vs New Zealand, but all those fixtures are home fixtures. He has stood out a lot in Six Nations tournaments, he creates lots of opportunities for his teams, but at this point I don't see him as having the career impact that Carter has. Let's see though, he is still 28 and can still potentially get to that legacy career mould of Carter.

Now putting forward my truly unpopular opinion, I think PSDT has had a more impactful career and is someone I'd rather have in my team in a big match than DuPont. A very different kind of player, but not one that is going to steal the limelight, but two world cups and two player of the years in those RWC years, a critical player who can go 80 mins in Rassie's 7-1 split world and just someone who you can always rely on to absolutely empty the tank.

Surely something controversial in all of that.

 

[General Melchett]

Feels like we've been here before. The game is for all shapes & sizes with most positions requiring a specific skillset which means you're never going to get an apples v apples comparison when discussing a rugby GOAT. Tight 5 players often get overlooked because they don't get the same headlines as a skillful back or a flanker who is good on the floor and wins jackal penalties. Comparing by position makes more sense but even then you have to factor in a few things:

1. Recency bias
2. Local bias
3. Armchair factor

Not saying he's the GOAT in his position but I was always blown away by peak Sergio Parisse because it seemed like he single handedly kept a shite Italy side competitive for 50-60 minutes in some 6N games before they ran out of steam. I doubt he's featuring in any no.8 GOAT discussions because he played for Italy and didn't win anything. What I'm pretty sure about is that he would have slotted into a world class AB's/Boks side with ease and gone on to win honors had he been given the chance. Being surrounded by good players is massive - particularly for backs when they play behind a world class pack as they get the platform to shine. Dupont is incredible and absolutely deserves to be in the mix but if he played for Italy he wouldn't be in the conversation.

 

[Ddanno]

GOAT or not Dupont is the most complete player I've ever seen. Carries through forwards, drops them in defence, fetches ball like a 7, scores like a winger, steps in to kick goals in a pinch, has an Olympic gold medal.

Oh and he's a rather good scrum half when he finds the time

 

[Derpus]

Dan Carter still stands out to me in my head of best ever rugby player and I'll join the bandwagon of not seeing Du Pont as the GOAT yet. He was very well rounded, deadly with converting points with his boot and had consistency in his performance and showed BMT in crucial games in his career, getting MoTM for the 2015 RWC final and in the 2016 Top 14 final when he was in the late stages of his career (ignoring his successes in Super Rugby and the Tri Nations).

He often seemed like the difference between the Springboks and New Zealand. We could match up and fight with our forwards, but never had a fly half that came close to his all round skill combined with kicking accuracy… plus he terrorized us in Super Rugby.

I do think potentially there is some NH/SH bias here as we got a lot of exposure to Carter in Super Rugby and Tri Nations, whereas the perspectives from the north on him were more muted unless you followed those tournaments or perhaps caught those autumn internationals.

Meanwhile for us in the SH, we haven't really experienced or felt much pain being inflicted by Dupont as he doesn't come on SH international tours (I think the last one he was on was the 2017 tour of SA) and there isn't a huge amount of club crossover. He has a great record vs New Zealand, but all those fixtures are home fixtures. He has stood out a lot in Six Nations tournaments, he creates lots of opportunities for his teams, but at this point I don't see him as having the career impact that Carter has. Let's see though, he is still 28 and can still potentially get to that legacy career mould of Carter.

Now putting forward my truly unpopular opinion, I think PSDT has had a more impactful career and is someone I'd rather have in my team in a big match than DuPont. A very different kind of player, but not one that is going to steal the limelight, but two world cups and two player of the years in those RWC years, a critical player who can go 80 mins in Rassie's 7-1 split world and just someone who you can always rely on to absolutely empty the tank.

Surely something controversial in all of that.

It sure is convenient that the best player of all time doesn't have to play the best sides - except occasionally at home.

 

[IT157]

Dan Carter is the most complete flyhalf I've ever seen play. Incredible player and in the conversation for best of all time. As is Dupont.

Am I the only one who hates the expression GOAT? Used to mean rubbish back in the day lol. People are obsessed with it. You can't follow sports without someone spouting GOAT this and GOAT that. It is nauseating.

 

[Saintjay]

Carter and Dupont couldn't lace McCaw, Fitzpatricks, or Shelfords boots.

 

[Ddanno]

Not good enough at being filthy cheats tbf.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

loose forwards control the game and are the most complete players out there. Dupont, through his play style, has put himself close to that conversation.

 

[Flankers' paradise]

Carter couldn't tie Andy Goode's laces...or get him out of his jersey

 

[Which Tyler]

Carter couldn't tie Andy Goode's laces...or get him out of his jersey

Nor could Goode (could reach them) - he had boots made using velcro...
Whilst these were needed to get him out of modern jerseys

 

[mikebrownsauce1512]

Game's gone soft

Well said

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

A combined women's team should play a combined men's team to once and for all put to bed the delusions of those who think it would be remotely competitive.

 

[General Melchett]

A combined women's team should play a combined men's team to once and for all put to bed the delusions of those who think it would be remotely competitive.

Scotland men against Ireland women so we can finally get that ******* monkey off our back.

 

[Weldit]

Scotland men against Ireland women so we can finally get that ******* monkey off our back.

Apparently, on the morning of every game day, they climb the nearest mountain, rip off their shirts and beat their hairy chests to psych themselves up ready for the match.

Not sure what the men's team do.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Dan Carter is the most complete flyhalf I've ever seen play. Incredible player and in the conversation for best of all time. As is Dupont.

Am I the only one who hates the expression GOAT? Used to mean rubbish back in the day lol. People are obsessed with it. You can't follow sports without someone spouting GOAT this and GOAT that. It is nauseating.

Sounds like it's really got your goat.

 

[Ian Clive]

Scrum Half's are way over protected by referees

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Apparently, on the morning of every game day, they climb the nearest mountain, rip off their shirts and beat their hairy chests to psych themselves up ready for the match.

Not sure what the men's team do.

Prance around in skirts whilst loudly protesting they are not actually skirts.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Ok, i do see some trends.
I have to assume the ones dismissing Carter are trolling.

For those who consider Dupont the goat, i have to ask: how would you rate the likes of du Preez (another sh) or Bauden Barrett (non-sh)?
I always got the feeling that those two are massively underrated by NHers (and very well rounded!). Particularly du Preez. Kinda weird to present a two-time player of the year winner as someone underrated, but i do believe that to be the case. I dont think he gets the credit he deserves.