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[COVID-19] General Discussion

It's more that Fauci has come out and said that trump pushed back and slowed down the federal response. Trump definitely didn't like being overshadowed by Fauci but he can't handle criticism.
 
themole25 said:
It's more that Fauci has come out and said that trump pushed back and slowed down the federal response. Trump definitely didn't like being overshadowed by Fauci but he can't handle criticism.
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But also he most likely deems Fauci as not being loyal to him. Although not criticising him and loyalty in Trump's mind go hand in hand. This is going back to Comey's disclosure that Trump demanded loyalty from him to continue being head of the FBI before being fired.

Fauci pretty much said had social distancing been introduced earlier then the US would have been in a much better position without specifically naming Trump. I am surprised Trump did not twist it somehow to say Fauci wasn't, but I think even he knew it was a veiled criticism and hence why I think he retweeted #fire Fauci accordingly.
 
The_Blindside said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-giving-ministers-power-to-de-anonymise-users

giving up our anonymity for the sake of the public good. For or against?
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I have a professional interest in this subject. There is no way in a million years I would permit the state to know where I am, who I am and who I am interacting with 24/7. I'd prefer to be considered non-grata than live under those conditions.

"You appear to have traveled outside your allotted area and interacted with people outside your family group. Here's your £60 fine. Pay today and it's only £30"

Also I'd not trust a public sector organisation with security of any significant consequence (even working with the tech giants).

Finally the solution itself won't work without consequences for non-compliance / malicious use. Fall out with your mates? Ping the "I'm infected" button and have them quarantined for 2 weeks.... etc.
 
Yoshimitsu said:
I have a professional interest in this subject. There is no way in a million years I would permit the state to know where I am, who I am and who I am interacting with 24/7. I'd prefer to be considered non-grata than live under those conditions.

"You appear to have traveled outside your allotted area and interacted with people outside your family group. Here's your £60 fine. Pay today and it's only £30"

Also I'd not trust a public sector organisation with security of any significant consequence (even working with the tech giants).

Finally the solution itself won't work without consequences for non-compliance / malicious use. Fall out with your mates? Ping the "I'm infected" button and have them quarantined for 2 weeks.... etc.
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It's an interesting area and I suspect more Governments will intrude on people's civil liberties post Covid-19. How much do we push back against such use of our data and how much are we willing to give up in order to stop a future virus bringing down the country to a virtual standstill? How did Germany and South Korea mass test and identify/quarantine so quickly and limit the spread?
How do we learn for next time ? Identify quickly the initial cases, test and quarantine them before we even get to the stage of tracking everybody infected?

Would an extra layer - such as court order be needed in order for a Minister to release the identity of said infected person be sufficient to curb such abuse of power? We have already seen how inconsistent the police have used their current powers to keep people inside.
 
The_Blindside said:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-giving-ministers-power-to-de-anonymise-users

giving up our anonymity for the sake of the public good. For or against?
Click to expand...

For me people portray this as in infringement of people's freedom, liberty and rights. However they say it's the technology or the idea of increased surveillance that does this. That's wrong. Like almost any object, idea, thing etc... it is not inherently evil itself, but it is how it is used. It's human corruption like most things that is the problem. I would be fine with increased surveillance if it was used properly and would help save even one more life that would be lost by not having it. If you don't commit a crime what should you be afraid of? However the reality is that it would not be used simply to identify criminals etc... but would be used for political and financial gain. The real issue we need to try and solve is corruption in almost all forms of life and human greed. That though is dealing with human nature and quite frankly I'm not sure we're capable of it as a species and we'll probably make ourselves extinct before we get our act together.
 
Macron confirms lockdown in France will continue until 11 May.

  • France's borders will remain closed to non-EU countries until further notice
  • Restaurants, bars, cinemas and other public venues will remain closed, and festivals cannot be held until mid-July
  • The elderly, and those with severe disabilities or suffering from chronic illnesses, must remain confined even after restrictions begin being eased
  • Schools, colleges and high schools will gradually reopen from 11 May
  • All people with symptoms of coronavirus will be tested from 11 May
 
The Oggmonster said:
Yeah that'll be why he got 12 likes and counting for his post.
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Boils down to

Number of likes on a rugby forum about politics determines how right you are...

16e.jpg
 
The_Blindside said:
@Steve-o— tell me one thing why then did Trump delay testing of Americans when the first Co-Vid 19 case occurred in south Korea and USA on roughly the same date around 22 January? Look at their curves both testing and death rates per capita? Is this Media again not wanting to believe in the truth? The fact is Trump and America had warning to to start mass testing/isolate the early cases or start putting the mechanisms in place way back by end of January, including in February to accept WHO test kits instead of turning it down for their own, which turned out to be faulty. He lost vital time - around 6 weeks doing nothing apart from pointing to shutting down flights from China - conveniently leaving out that this didn't apply to American nationals returning from there and spreading the Virus. Or Europe until March, when a number of Europeans from the 26 countries, and then subsequently UK/Ireland were still entering the USA. The virus was already in the USA during the crucial period between end of January and when he ordered these shut downs. And then playing down the virus as a "Democratic Hoax" and they were in "great shape" and "it would soon disappear like a Miracle". These aren't media falsehoods, but his own words.

He only finally got the gist that this would be serious and affect his re-election chances when Fauci and Birx showed him the charts showing if they continue to do nothing around 2.2m Americans would die. Also seeing the chaos in the hospital in Queens NYC near where he used to live.

A full Pandemic office at the White House and a POTUS who listened and not one who was so worried about the Stock market and his own re-election, and had the sense that if he did not, then the economy would go to pot anyway. He created his administration to cater for him and often those have to tip toe around him not to upset him and give him news when he is ready to hear it. He is RESPONSIBLE for that.

But yep, just keep clutching at straws and how the media keep portraying this "Trump Derangement Syndrome" and "Orange Man Bad" are mainstream now and ranting at the inconsistencies/hypocrisies.
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Sloppy response. Please provide references/sources to your claims. I do so for mine (the main ones at least) and anybody serious about getting closer to the truth about any topic would too.
 
ragerancher said:
Seriously? You're going to put all the blame for this being politicised on the Democrats? You mention "orange man bad" and "trump derangement syndrome" but generally anyone who uses those terms is even worse in refusing to recognise any of the multitude of things Trump has done wrong. Trump has been politicising everything since day 1 and things like closing down the pandemic response unit are ENTIRELY his doing and his alone. Nothing the Democrats have done even comes close to politicising this in the way Trump has. Hell that stupid fucker openly said that the Vice president should not have conversations with state governors who were not suitably grateful, these same governors Trump had been slagging off. Also why the **** is his son overseeing the distribution of medical supplies when he is wholly unfit for the task? How is that anything but nepotism? Add to high daughter having a privileged role too.

How about his constant war on the press and complete refusal to be accountable for anything? Remember this is the guy who said "I take no responsibility for anything"? Let me guess, you excused that? Do try to explain how that works with this: https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/398887965302091776?lang=en Did you know he has just replaced his press secretary without them ever briefing the press once in just over half a year? That is unprecedented and don't give us some bullshit about how horrible the press are. Obama still gave briefings to Fox news and the like even when they were being the biggest bunch of shits the media has ever produced.

You are in no position to go on about trump derangement syndrome or orange man bad if you have turned a blind eye to all the **** trump has done. Also if you were one of the dribblers chanting lock her up or peddling the Obama birther or Obama is a Muslim crap.
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Another sloppy response but you and me have been here before.

If you are serious about discussing anything, work through one item at a time with references/sources.
 
The Alpha Bro said:
No need for the inverted commas it was literally disbanded:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN21C32M

That Washington post piece is an opinion piece.

Same paper, different opinion:
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Exactly. Two experts in virtually in the same position, now both former employees, with different opinions about how things should run. That's healthy and normal for a complicated function.
Operative word being 'function'. Anybody who has ever worked on restructuring projects, or has been part of it somehow, would know that teams/departments dissolve and get pulled apart, but often the function still exists somewhere. From the opinion piece I posted, and the links in the article, it's clear that the biodefense function still exists, even if the name is not exactly the same.

One thing is very clear and that is the NSC has evolved with every administration. Obama increased it from 200 people to 400 people, the biggest jump is it's 50+ year history. I would say the opinion piece I posted had more bipartisan sources that it had become bloated during the Obama years though.

I guess it comes down to what seems more likely:

- The NSC had become was bloated after years of being in the hands of public servants and then a president with unparalleled private sector experience came in and returned it to the size it was historically and made it more efficient.

OR

- [Insert whatever you think]

If you're relying on any American media though you've already lost. Taking it totally away from politics, the NY Times ran about three pieces claiming Conor McGregor was under investigation for sexual assault in Ireland, this story was never ran in Ireland because bit would have exposed every paper to massive defamation suits, our Police Service never announced who they were investigating over the crime. (No fan of McGregor and it was probably him but the NY Times were reporting rumours as fact) point being, American media doesn't need to report facts.
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So are you saying.. NY Times is fake news?

What we can look at is results and actions, and the States have handled this as poorly as anyone and had more time to prepare than most, if not all, of Europe. They continued to belittle the coronavirus even until they were past the point of no return, and now the areas hit the hardest don't have anywhere near the infrastructure required to deal with it. These aren't the results of a nation with a focused pandemic team.
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Well that's debatable at best.

Nobody knows what the best response to the virus is yet. We're only 4 months in.

Is a full locked down the best route?
There's evidence that people can get it twice in a short time period.

What happens when the country goes down to 0 and then people from overseas bring it in again?
Travel bans? Mandatory testing for every person coming in?

So it's too early to get the knives out already, regardless of what you think of the people making the calls.

And for the record, I call him semi-literate because he doesn't speak correctly. "Very Horrendous" is bad grammar, his twitter is full of grammatical mistakes, bigly/big league was dumb whatever you think he was saying.
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It's true his grammar is bad. But most people don't care because they voted him in to get things done.
 
The_Blindside said:
But also he most likely deems Fauci as not being loyal to him. Although not criticising him and loyalty in Trump's mind go hand in hand. This is going back to Comey's disclosure that Trump demanded loyalty from him to continue being head of the FBI before being fired.

Fauci pretty much said had social distancing been introduced earlier then the US would have been in a much better position without specifically naming Trump. I am surprised Trump did not twist it somehow to say Fauci wasn't, but I think even he knew it was a veiled criticism and hence why I think he retweeted #fire Fauci accordingly.
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Steve-o said:
Sloppy response. Please provide references/sources to your claims. I do so for mine (the main ones at least) and anybody serious about getting closer to the truth about any topic would too.
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Is that all you can say in response because my you can't answer a basic question? Provide sources to a claim that USA did not start mass testing when they found out their first case way back around 22 January, at the same time as South Korea. Accuse my response of being sloppy by providing a sloppy response with no references in return. You'll have to work harder than that.

But then you're just a typical Trump troll trying to garner a reaction. Blasting anything you can't answer with request for sources, which you'll just denigrate. When you can't answer my question about those 6 weeks.

But hey you answer my question first with your sources on US testing before I engage with you any further.
 
Steve-o said:
Another sloppy response but you and me have been here before.

If you are serious about discussing anything, work through one item at a time with references/sources.
Click to expand...

As soon as you start going on about orange man bad and citing fox news, there is little point. You've also dodged the point that trunk has played a bigger role in politicising this than the democrats have. Only today he used the it's briefing as an excuse to do self promoting broadcasting and has claimed total authority over the end of the lockdown, including overriding states own procures.

Nah what is sad is how you sit there with your fingers in your ears going "nah nah trump derangement syndrome, orange man bad! Orange man bad!" Ever think the reason he is so opposed is because he is a disgusting lying ****? How many times must he act unbecoming of an adult let alone a president before you recognise that? Hell he even lied about graduating top of his class, a completely pointless lie but his ego can't handle being considered anything other than the best. The over the top response to questioning his school record shows what an insecure protecting trollop he is and you turn a blind eye to it because you are under some delusion that you are "sticking it to the libs".

Imagine if Obama said he took no responsibility for anything, you'd be hopping all over that.

And now have you seen the presidents latest conference? For **** sake man how can you not have a problem with how Trump acts? I mean seriously, it has been at ridiculous state for ages. This is ******* disgraceful and you turn a blind eye so I have to seriously question your sense of morality and rationality. This has gone beyond a joke, this has gone beyond a bit rude, this is into megalomania and paranoia. The whole conference is about HIM. It's all me me me, it's all name calling, it's all avoiding facts, minimal points about the virus and the people dead except how it reflects on Trump. Seriously what the **** is wrong with you that you can't see just how insane this man is? I am genuinely angry at the right wing now and how you lot just do not give 2 ******* shits about the damage you cause as long as you think you are sticking it to the libs.
 
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Steve-o said:
Exactly. Two experts in virtually in the same position, now both former employees, with different opinions about how things should run. That's healthy and normal for a complicated function.
Operative word being 'function'. Anybody who has ever worked on restructuring projects, or has been part of it somehow, would know that teams/departments dissolve and get pulled apart, but often the function still exists somewhere. From the opinion piece I posted, and the links in the article, it's clear that the biodefense function still exists, even if the name is not exactly the same.

One thing is very clear and that is the NSC has evolved with every administration. Obama increased it from 200 people to 400 people, the biggest jump is it's 50+ year history. I would say the opinion piece I posted had more bipartisan sources that it had become bloated during the Obama years though.

I guess it comes down to what seems more likely:

- The NSC had become was bloated after years of being in the hands of public servants and then a president with unparalleled private sector experience came in and returned it to the size it was historically and made it more efficient.

OR

- [Insert whatever you think]
Click to expand...

Restructuring badly will all but kill the focus on certain functions though. Trump's private experience is full of failed businesses and outright fraud too so trying to paint public servants as incompetent shouldn't really away anyone's opinion.
So are you saying.. NY Times is fake news?
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Fake, probably not, I believe this particular story because it's nearly common knowledge in Dublin. But it doesn't have to hit the journalistic standards of the vast majority of the first world. The NY Times is possibly the most reputable paper in the States and they ran a story that our tabloids couldn't which is worrying.

Well that's debatable at best.

Nobody knows what the best response to the virus is yet. We're only 4 months in.

Is a full locked down the best route?
There's evidence that people can get it twice in a short time period.

What happens when the country goes down to 0 and then people from overseas bring it in again?
Travel bans? Mandatory testing for every person coming in?

So it's too early to get the knives out already, regardless of what you think of the people making the calls.
Click to expand...
Would you be saying that as a New Yorker? Limiting deaths is absolutely the correct way to start this, even if you end up having a spike later on you'll also have better capacity for dealing with the virus. The US, UK, Italy and Spain have all experienced needless deaths for not reacting quickly enough and all have introduced lockdowns, the US had about 10 days more preparation time.

It's true his grammar is bad. But most people don't care because they voted him in to get things done.
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Most Americans also famously don't care how they present themselves, whether it be obesity, bad hygiene, bad manners etc... Trump is more of a representation of what is wrong with that country rather than someone fixing it in my opinion, his inability to speak and odd appearance are part of that in my opinion, and the opinions of many others. You don't have to agree but I doubt his "bullishness" helps him outside of his media appearances.
 
Pure deflecting away from his failures in handling this. Everything he blames on them is what he's done wrong.
 

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