Did the Saracens factor ultimately kill England's campaign?

[Tooting Carmen]

The lack of game time and match fitness of many of Eddie's faves surely had an impact.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think so,

It definitely played a part, but these players weren't performing in the Autumn, when the lack of game time wasn't an issue.
Baxter mentioned, today, that Johnny Hill has only played twice for Exeter this season (before today) - so that's two more than most Sarries players, and one more than George (I think he played the warmup? Might have been one of the Vunipolas), so not a crazy amount of extra match fitness.


Selection and tactics did for us.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

But if we are to accept that the Premiership as a whole (not just Sarries) is just as good as the Top 14 and much better than the Pro 14, quite apart from England having the biggest playing base in the world, then what would explain such an underperformance at international level?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

But if we are to accept that the Premiership as a whole (not just Sarries) is just as good as the Top 14 and much better than the Pro 14, quite apart from England having the biggest playing base in the world, then what would explain such an underperformance at international level?

Selection and tactics.
The best(/form) players weren't picked, and then a gameplan was selected (and strictly adhered to) that simply never looked like working

 

[Tooting Carmen]

Albeit of course the English and French leagues have rather more foreign players than the Pro 14 does (and even many of those who are foreign in the latter eventually become nationalised, especially South Africans), whereas the Italian, Scottish and even Welsh and Irish sides have a lot of (usually) younger homegrown players who indeed can be of questionable quality.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think the lack of leadership with this bubble really hampered the mindset

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

From my perspective, French game side the English players didn't look like they had any fight in then at all and almost like they didn't want to be there. They looked like quin's did in gustards final days. Sarries aside, a lot of the England players look more impressive back at their clubs than they did for England.

It's no secret that I feel Jones is destroying the team mentally and physically so that is why I feel we are underperforming. These aren't bad players but I think the systems on and off field that Jones employs are causing more harm than good.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

They aren't bad players but Billy has been useless for a while and jones still picked him. Mako hasn't been able to scrum for a while yet he still got picked. Daly been bad at FB since get go and still picked and Farrell is his superstar that never looks anything other than average.

Jones never selects the best 23 and his tactics are sometimes bang on and other times well off the Mark.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

They aren't bad players but Billy has been useless for a while and jones still picked him. Mako hasn't been able to scrum for a while yet he still got picked. Daly been bad at FB since get go and still picked and Farrell is his superstar that never looks anything other than average.

Jones never selects the best 23 and his tactics are sometimes bang on and other times well off the Mark.

Would it perhaps be fair to say that, while the Welsh, Irish and maybe Scottish teams are often greater than the sums of their parts and the coaches get the players to play above themselves, this is rather less the case with England, precisely because the much greater depth and quality in players makes the whole set-up kind of complacent?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Would it perhaps be fair to say that, while the Welsh, Irish and maybe Scottish teams are often greater than the sums of their parts and the coaches get the players to play above themselves, this is rather less the case with England, precisely because the much greater depth and quality in players makes the whole set-up kind of complacent?

100%

England rarely play as well as the sum of their parts


living sacrifice hit the nail on the head as well - I could forgive EJ picking a side which isn't necessarily the best/form players if they were the best players for his gameplan and executed it well - but the current lot aren't/don't

 

[Tooting Carmen]

100%

England rarely play as well as the sum of their parts


living sacrifice hit the nail on the head as well - I could forgive EJ picking a side which isn't necessarily the best/form players if they were the best players for his gameplan and executed it well - but the current lot aren't/don't

In his recent autobiography, Warren Gatland said that, while almost all the England players in the 2019 RWC squad could get into the Wales squad based on individual talent and ability, only maybe ten Wales players could get into the England squad.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Would it perhaps be fair to say that, while the Welsh, Irish and maybe Scottish teams are often greater than the sums of their parts and the coaches get the players to play above themselves, this is rather less the case with England, precisely because the much greater depth and quality in players makes the whole set-up kind of complacent?

Its fair to say that Eng is regularly less than the sum of its parts and for any team where that's the case scrutiny has to fall on the leadership. But one of the frustrating things is that the strength in depth should drive out complacency by bringing increased competition.....in any normal universe that would cause standards to rise.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think there are lots of top notch quality players in England but we as a side haven't had a true style or identity for a long time. Because of the amount of players as well you will always have top players that don't fit a certain style.

An example for be Billy V (when in his best form) and Simmonds. Both up there with WC but completely different styles so you can't change out one for the other without changing tactics etc.

What we need is a coach who picks a style, then picks players who fit that style and run with it. Get big forwards, or offloading mobile ones, just pick one and stop this stupid mobile forwards but a kicking game plan or the opposite.

 

[Son of glyndwr]

The lack of game time and match fitness of many of Eddie's faves surely had an impact.

Lack of passion and over hyped England think they only have to turn up their didn't have a clue against Scotland or Wales

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

I see it as a problem with having such a large player base. We've got so many superstars coaches feeling included to pick (and if they don't pick them there's national outrage citing how amazing they are at club level) and they don't always gel well together. Our game then becomes a hodpodge of styles. It's an incoherent mess.

Ireland, Wales and Scotland have a smaller group to choose from them. They pick their superstars and fit in all the other players around them. It creates a more unified team with a game plan they all know.

 

[Son of glyndwr]

Selection and tactics.
The best(/form) players weren't picked, and then a gameplan was selected (and strictly adhered to) that simply never looked like working

Didn't have a plan a never mind b an in a lions year you would think the players be playing out of there skins to make that squad shameful! An as for easy

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's honestly impressive that you're still this furious this long after the tournament ended

 

[Harvey Pro]

I don't think so,

It definitely played a part, but these players weren't performing in the Autumn, when the lack of game time wasn't an issue.
Baxter mentioned, today, that Johnny Hill has only played twice for Exeter this season (before today) - so that's two more than most Sarries players, and one more than George (I think he played the warmup? Might have been one of the Vunipolas), so not a crazy amount of extra match fitness.


Selection and tactics did for us.

What I don't understand is why Jones seems unable to to recognise or exploit England's (almost) unique advantage in world rugby. We have the largest player pool in the world. Both England and New Zealand are probably the only countries in the world that could realistically put two sides into the World Cup where both would have a good chance of making the knockout stages. At the beginning of Jones's reign he effectively took that b side to Argentina and wiped the floor with them!
This raises both an opportunity and a challenge. The opportunity is that we can pick in form players. The challenge is how do you maintain a close knit cohesive unit if a team is constantly changing?
To my knowledge Jones has no experience of managing in such an environment. Both Australia and Japan have much smaller player pools. In those environments getting the most out of what's available and player development are even more important (maybe even more than selection). I think in England's case the opposite is true. Our many great clubs focus on player development so duplicating that can be overkill.
It's remarkable that Exeter Chiefs have one of the best records on player development in living memory. Yet here I sit wondering why the Simmonds brother can't even make the player squad let alone get selected! Jones looks to this rugby addict as out of his depth on selection. He wants to stick with what he knows and what's worked in the past. The over playing of Billy Vunipola prior to the World Cup final was a classic example!