Do you believe?

[St Helens RLFC]

Maybe there is life beyond this world. Who cares? [/b]

me as well.



Bit of a silly thing to say, really.

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

I honestly don't see how you just proved me wrong and yourself right with that post.
Yes, i agree that the shortest point from A to B would be a straight line.

What's that got to do with the curvature of the universe?
Again, don't get *****y with me, i'm just saying there's every possibility.

You see, right now i regard myself as the few who believed the world was round, and you as the masses who believed it was flat all those years ago.
Back then there was no photographic evidence to prove either right, but you can't just blindly disregard the other opinion.

Apologies if you actually made a valid point in your last post, i just couldn't see the relevance of betting a pound with me regarding quickest routes and the possibility of there being a curvature in the universe.
[/b]

Dude, I'm not getting *****y with ya....I'm just being a bit sarcastic. There is no way the universe is curved.......It's just some preposterous theoretical construct. If I am looking at the other side of the room it is just impossible that reality is bent double so that it's possible for me to get to the other part of the room by cutting the corner....there just isn't any corner to cut. It's just can't work like that.

 

[melon]

There is no way the universe is curved.......It's just some preposterous theoretical construct. If I am looking at the other side of the room it is just impossible that reality is bent double so that it's possible for me to get to the other part of the room by cutting the corner....there just isn't any corner to cut. It's just can't work like that.
[/b]

Well I'm sorry RBS, but it Who are you to say the Universe doesn't curve?

 

[O'Rothlain]

<div class='quotemain'>

I'm not entirely sure anyone can claim that.
Who's to say it's a random curve?

Come on, mate, your post was a little too vague. Explain yourself, please.
[/b]

It doesn't curve back on itself....it just doesn't. How could it? How could that possibly work? I can't prove a negative but I'll put my money where my mouth is. I bet you a pound that Hawkins is wrong on this one.

The shortest route between two points is in a straight line. Here's my proof :

A -------------------------------------------------------------------- B

You owe me a pound.
[/b][/quote]

<div class='quotemain'>
There is no way the universe is curved.......It's just some preposterous theoretical construct. If I am looking at the other side of the room it is just impossible that reality is bent double so that it's possible for me to get to the other part of the room by cutting the corner....there just isn't any corner to cut. It's just can't work like that.
[/b]

Well I'm sorry RBS, but it >

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Think about this: If i'm on one side of the world (which is a sphere), and you are on the complete opposite side, it would be a shorter distance in a straight line (straight through the earth) than to walk in a curved nature (around the earth). If we wanted to get to one another we'd obviously walked around the earth which to us is seemingly in a straight line without any curvature at all. It's all about perspective. We don't feel it, we just know it's there. If we are a bloody sphere, then why can't the universe be of the same nature? We could just keep going straight in a space ship and end up back at earth.

There are so many arguments to be made, and I pose my original question: Who are you to say the Universe doesn't curve?
[/b]

I've looked at it thought about it and I've concluded that it is not curved. It's just not. You example about going through the middle of the earth doesn't hold. The universe has length breadth and depth...it is a fundamental. For you to call me to prove that there isn't little pixie burrows that somehow just take you through to the other end of reality is just crazy.

PS I think we all should be reading this thread in a Steven Hawkins voice.

 

[Rugby_Cymru]

Oh, come on.
This discussion clearly isn't going anywhere when you belittle our points of view like so: -

For you to call me to prove that there isn't little pixie burrows that somehow just take you through to the other end of reality is just crazy.
[/b]

We're putting across a hypothetical possibility and we accept that it may or may not be true, but where are we getting when you simply reply:

I've looked at it thought about it and I've concluded that it is not curved. It's just not. [/b]

I'm more than happy to accept your argument if you weren't so closed minded in regards to our point of view. But that just doens't seem to be the case.

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Oh, come on.
This discussion clearly isn't going anywhere when you belittle our points of view like so: -

<div class='quotemain'>For you to call me to prove that there isn't little pixie burrows that somehow just take you through to the other end of reality is just crazy.
[/b]

We're putting across a hypothetical possibility and we accept that it may or may not be true, but where are we getting when you simply reply:

I've looked at it thought about it and I've concluded that it is not curved. It's just not. [/b]

I'm more than happy to accept your argument if you weren't so closed minded in regards to our point of view. But that just doens't seem to be the case.
[/b][/quote]

I'm really not being obtuse here...I have just rejected the theory of curved space wormhole. I'm being dogmatic, but not close minded.

 

[O'Rothlain]

What evidence is there for a curved space? This is my question..."Outside of a dude who thinks he's brilliant in a wheelchair, what evidence is there for a curved space?"
I watched an interesting program on the Discovery Chanel called "How William Shatner Changed The World." It was really more of how Star Trek has influenced popular invention, from your mobile phone to space travel. Is it possible that people take this thing science fiction too far? I mean, we've all seen pictures of dorks dressed up as Klingons (and so help me God, if you are one, and you fire back to defend yourself, I will buy a f___ing airplane ticket and fly to your country take a cab to your home, ring your doorbell and pimpslap you...just stay in the closet) and you have to know that you're probably seeing the guys that run microsoft and apple. All this is to say, I DON"T BELIEVE IN F___ING WORMHOLES AND CURVED SPACE. If you told me one day we could fly using rocket packs I'd believe you...why, because the science lines up with scientific law.

Back to the original question, No, I don't believe in alien life form. I think it's a fun idea that makes big movies and keeps the convention centers 'round the world full of people in costume trading comic books and have weird dork orgies, but NO, they don't exist.

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[SaintsFan_Webby]

Why are wormholes, curved space et al so unbelievable?

We (as in the human race) can only accurately apply the laws of physics we know exist on Earth. How can anyone yet know whether the same laws apply outside our own solar system or galaxy?

Gravity is different on every planet we know about. Who can say whether out in space there aren't things which differ hugely from our own scientific experience?

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

We (as in the human race) can only accurately apply the laws of physics we know exist on Earth. How can anyone yet know whether the same laws apply outside our own solar system or galaxy?

Gravity is different on every planet we know about. Who can say whether out in space there aren't things which differ hugely from our own scientific experience? [/b]

Argh!...the laws of physics aren't localised, they aren't eccentric & colloquial....that's the point. They are how things work...how things exist. It can't be different anywhere else.

There might be some extremes of localised force (Ie radiation or gravity) that might cause anomalies but the cause & effect will be the same wherever.

There is no evidence or any credible thinking to actually back up this wormhole bunkum. Just saying "You can't prove it isn't curved!" is not any argument.

 

[SaintsFan_Webby]

Argh!...the laws of physics aren't localised, they aren't eccentric & colloquial....that's the point. They are how things work...how things exist. It can't be different anywhere else.
[/b]

But surely the laws of physics are defined only by what humans have discovered?

Gravity didn't exist to human society until the theory behind it was discovered. How can you possibly say with any certainty that there isn't some revolutionary difference to this set of 'laws' we have created lurking out there in the vast, as yet untouchable reaches of space?

You can't possibly.

That isn't to say the Universe definately does curve, or that wormholes definately could be used in a particular way. It's merely stating that no one in humanity can vouch with 100% certainty for what is out there.

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

<div class='quotemain'>
Argh!...the laws of physics aren't localised, they aren't eccentric & colloquial....that's the point. They are how things work...how things exist. It can't be different anywhere else.
[/b]

But surely the laws of physics are defined only by what humans have discovered?

Gravity didn't exist to human society until the theory behind it was discovered. How can you possibly say with any certainty that there isn't some revolutionary difference to this set of 'laws' we have created lurking out there in the vast, as yet untouchable reaches of space?

You can't possibly.

That isn't to say the Universe definately does curve, or that wormholes definately could be used in a particular way. It's merely stating that no one in humanity can vouch with 100% certainty for what is out there.

[/b][/quote]

No, I can...cleverer people then me have worked out how things work. They know how the sub atomic particles make up the atoms, they know how the atoms make up the molecules. We know about the different radiation right across the spectrum. They know how gravity effects things. We are pretty sussed at the moment. From what I've looked at I have made up my mind. Do wormholes exist, our survey says :

The problem is all these out-there theories that scientists bring up get seized upon by ill-informed media types and then leymen like us go "Oooooh!"

Gentlemen, I can assure you.....there is no way to nip from point A to point Z via some odd backdoor through to this convenient cosmic basement. This coupled with the theory of relativity (Ie you cannot travel at or faster than the speed of light) means that interstellar travel will end up be a slow generational thing.

SB

 

[Rugby_Cymru]

I don't see how this is getting anywhere.
I'm not meaning to offend anyone, but we're arguing science and thte possibilities of our universe with religious people.
People who refuse to accept aliens exist because as teh bible dictates such illiusions are the work of the Devil.

We're never going to get a diplomatic response. As much as we are saying, "Yeah, maybe you're right, but there's still a possibility of what we're talking about being correct" their response is simply to plug their fingers in their ears and saying, "LALALALA...I'M NOT LISTENING...LALALA...I AM RIGHT AND I KNOW IT....LALLALALA...YOU ARE WRONG."

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

I don't see how this is getting anywhere.
I'm not meaning to offend anyone, but we're arguing science and thte possibilities of our universe with religious people.
People who refuse to accept aliens exist because as teh bible dictates such illiusions are the work of the Devil.

We're never going to get a diplomatic response. As much as we are saying, "Yeah, maybe you're right, but there's still a possibility of what we're talking about being correct" their response is simply to plug their fingers in their ears and saying, "LALALALA...I'M NOT LISTENING...LALALA...I AM RIGHT AND I KNOW IT....LALLALALA...YOU ARE WRONG."
[/b]

So basically me and O'Ro are asking for proof of your wacky theories and you are, through blind faith alone, dogmatically sticking to this vague half-idea without any real evidence.......and then are coming back to us all playing the ignorant religious intolerance card.

Please tell me you did that deliberately to be clever and ironic.....the alternative is just too scarey to contemplate.

 

[Rugby_Cymru]

Ok, well all i can say is (and from what i've read) that through FACTS this THEORY has been concocted. With Einsteins theory of general relativity where he has proved that mass bends space - the bigger the mass the more it bends space.
So when you've got a mass as big as a blackhole and wtih such power, why can it not bend space enough? I believe what was being claimed was that if space bends enough and makes contact (like a folded piece of paper) then on the opposite side of the black hole exists a white hole.
Black hole sucks everything in - white hole spits everything out. And the one thing joining the two of those is a wormhole.

To me, it does not seem so far fetched.
It seems extravagent - very much so - but there's logic behind the thinking. There's fact behind the theory.
Which is more that what i can say for religion.
But that's just my opinion. I have to stretch my imagination far further to believe that some deity exists which magically made everything so, than to believe a wormhole could exist.

 

[QKXV]

I don't know how anyone can not appreciate the possibility that there's other forms of life in the universe, especially religious people. My argument is that the relgious people believe God is infinite, something we cannot appreciate with our tiny cognitive processes, this means that no holy book on the planet can really convey just how big and amazing God in any form really is, so they above all people should believe that there is more to life than just this little blue planet with us and a couple of other organisms, especially if you consider they believe in the after life and alien forms of beings like angels, demons and yin and the list goes on.

Recent discoveries suggest that there's astoningly high and unexpectedly more diversity in the deep of the ocean than ever imagined, recently more than 500 different SPECIES of crustacean were found, even in our own ocean the possibility exists that we will never know just how many different species there are.

As for the universe existing in the way it does because of our measuring and observing look no further than the most confusing yet the best way we currently have of explaining our universe- quantum physics. It's well know that light can behave either like a wave or a particle simply by changing the way it is observed, this is known as duality, the underlying cause of this is believed to be entanglement which suggests that objects that have interacted become entangled in a way that you can't influence one without influencing the other, curently this is thought to be the reason why objects have mass.

If we create the laws of the universe by the act of observing and measuring it and our current measurements offers the above the possibilty is bigger that we will not travel through space at the speed of light with spaceships as our measurments clearly indicates travel at that speed would be physically impossible but we would most probably use teleportation instead.

 

[Dumbo]

Yo QK, can you please teleport me to BokMagic's place via Samoa, Fiji and Tahiti...
Have 6'4'', 6'7'' and 7'2'' and am ready... just say the word

 

[tituslechmakus]

Ok, well all i can say is (and from what i've read) that through FACTS this THEORY has been concocted. With Einsteins theory of general relativity where he has proved that mass bends space - the bigger the mass the more it bends space.
So when you've got a mass as big as a blackhole and wtih such power, why can it not bend space enough? I believe what was being claimed was that if space bends enough and makes contact (like a folded piece of paper) then on the opposite side of the black hole exists a white hole.
Black hole sucks everything in - white hole spits everything out. And the one thing joining the two of those is a wormhole.

To me, it does not seem so far fetched.
It seems extravagent - very much so - but there's logic behind the thinking. There's fact behind the theory.
Which is more that what i can say for religion.
But that's just my opinion. I have to stretch my imagination far further to believe that some deity exists which magically made everything so, than to believe a wormhole could exist.

[/b]

i agree with almost everything you said and i must add 2 things : 1st the einstein theory of relativity is possibly wrong (some ppl are actually trying to prove it) and another theory which i didn't understand everything of due to scientifical facts and terms that i don't even understand in my own language (so i couldn't translate sorry) but saying that there is not only 4 dimensions (x, y, z and time) but there would be in fact 10. its something about dimensions being rounded on themselves and present everywhere but not visible. weird theories but if they get right in the next years, could modify our perception of the world & universe.



btw there is not only one way to go from a point A to a point B ... there is an infinity !!!

 

[O'Rothlain]

I don't see how this is getting anywhere.
I'm not meaning to offend anyone, but we're arguing science and thte possibilities of our universe with religious people.
People who refuse to accept aliens exist because as teh bible dictates such illiusions are the work of the Devil.

We're never going to get a diplomatic response. As much as we are saying, "Yeah, maybe you're right, but there's still a possibility of what we're talking about being correct" their response is simply to plug their fingers in their ears and saying, "LALALALA...I'M NOT LISTENING...LALALA...I AM RIGHT AND I KNOW IT....LALLALALA...YOU ARE WRONG."
[/b]

I can only assume that I am one of these "religious people." I however have never stated that I do not believe in life outside our planet because it is a "illusion of the devil." In fact, I don't believe in it, because I don't. We are the only planet (obviously that we know of) in our own galaxy that can sustane life. ONLY. This is fact...we are "somehow" just perfectly far enough away and close enough to the Sun. Our Moon is just perfectly at the right distance to keep our rotation off axis which provides us with al the lovely things we enjoy. We have the perfect amount of light at daytime, and light at night time. Some how we live on this happen-chance of a planet that is perfectly suited to our every need. It's astonishing how well catered to we are here on earth.
Having stated this, any other life form, if they exist are far beyond our reach.
I think my and RBS's points have been, there are laws that govern the universe. If somehow these laws didn't apply in space, then how would we send probes to mars, or land on the moon? If as soon as we got out of our atmosphere the rules changed into some whacky Bizzaro world how could we have made the accoomplishments we've made? If anyting NASA and everyother space agencies research have only strengthend our understanding of natural law and physics, not changed them up. When you watch tv beamed to you live from Iraq, or a rugby match televised to your home in the UK from Australia (or vise versa) that is all thanks to these things call LAWS. Our understanding of them allows us to replicate, what I believe God did with earth, and perfectly balance satelites in rotation around our planet.
If there are lifeforms outside of our own somewhere out there, they are "lightyears" beyond us, and I don't believe that we have or they have made contact with us, nor will we be making contact any time soon.
When it comes to traveling at the speed of light or whatever we are soooooooooooo far off from it, if it's possible. We talk about it like it's nothing 'cause we've seen it in movies, but do you know how fast that is?

 

[RoyalBlueStuey]

Another one that blows me away is the fact that we have total eclipses the way we do.

We are a certain distance away from the sun so it looks a certain size in the sky and we have a moon that is just the right size and at the right distance to by the exact same size as the sun when it achieves totality.

If it was a tiny bit smaller or bigger or further away or nearer you wouldn't see the corona and diamond ring effects.