Doping in Rugby

[Big Ewis]

yeah sure, allow doping. I mean, what the heck, right. Also, allow players to play with full-on erections with G-strings on, I mean surely that'd be problematic only in sports like gymnastics or greco-roman wrestling but in Rugby, there's 30 dudes on the field, who cares. Limits ? What the crap is that ? Well just set a certain dosage of Viagra per player and if they exceed it, give them a hard spank on the behind and with your index finger moving back and forth be sure to tell them that's a no-no, I'm sure they'll be very ashamed of themselves and certainly won't look to do it again. Just setup a little board in the locker room with a drawn table containing everybody's name so they can write the amount of Viagra they've ingested for the day. Trust is key, and without it, this world would be a very naughty naughty place.
So I'm def pro-doping, I think if it's done right with love and caring, then flowers sunshine and erections.

 

[goodNumber10]

Just before we go any further: it's important to remember that PED's don't just cover athletic enhancers, but also nootropics as well.

do we need to make a distinction? the crux is performance enhancing, most Nootropics are banned because of the physical side effects not the cognitive effects.

 

[BakkiesBokke]

But for that specific reason this is a grey area.

Every person at the gym nowadays use some sort of supplement (legal or illegal) to assist in recovery/fat burning/ muscle toning.

Most people don't want to manage the recovery time, and want results, so they use all sorts of shakes/powders/pills to aid them. How is that any different from doping??

I agree there is a fine line between supplementation and doping. What can and cannot legally be taken now? I know protein shakes are obviously fine but what about the likes of creatine? It is a standard supplement but does have a huge effect. L - carnitine is also very effective as a training supplement but not illegal. Maybe it should be? I'm playing devil's advocate but discussing what should and shouldn't be allowed is interesting

- - - Updated - - -

Fair enough. If anything I just wanted to post something with Kolbe stepping his way through a team.

Interestingly on this I see that Chester Williams has warned Kolbe not to bulk up too much. It might improve a player's ability to gain yards in the contact but that isn't what Kolbe's game is about. Players with his frame (eg Aplon whom he will replace probably) need great tackling technique but their agility in defence is also a tremendous attribute

 

[ratsapprentice]

do we need to make a distinction? the crux is performance enhancing, most Nootropics are banned because of the physical side effects not the cognitive effects.

We don't need to make a distinction - PED's as an umbrella term works very well.

It's just that, as evidence by this thread, a lot of people don't associate it with anything other than mass.
Or that is by some distance the first thing they think of upon hearing the term, at least.

I agree there is a fine line between supplementation and doping. What can and cannot legally be taken now? I know protein shakes are obviously fine but what about the likes of creatine? It is a standard supplement but does have a huge effect. L - carnitine is also very effective as a training supplement but not illegal. Maybe it should be? I'm playing devil's advocate but discussing what should and shouldn't be allowed is interesting

See this is part of the point I am making... why do people not bat an eyelid at people taking Creatine or Caffeine, yet baulk at the idea of someone taking testosterone?

It's entirely arbitrary.

 

[goodNumber10]

We don't need to make a distinction - PED's as an umbrella term works very well.

It's just that, as evidence by this thread, a lot of people don't associate it with anything other than mass.
Or that is by some distance the first thing they think of upon hearing the term, at least.



See this is part of the point I am making... why do people not bat an eyelid at people taking Creatine or Caffeine, yet baulk at the idea of someone taking testosterone?

It's entirely arbitrary.

Am I imagining it or is creatine and caffeine tablets etc... Also banned? I think they are within the armed forces or something along those lines...

Anyway, just a point, people should just be a bit careful saying they have taken etc.... This is a public forum and you member know further down there line.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Creatine and caffiene are definitely not banned by anyone other than over zealous parents.
There may be guidelines around how much caffeine you can take before a game - but this would largely be to cover someone's ass should a player have a heart attack.
It's certainly not banned by any widely recognised anti-doping regulator.

I do recall hearing about some sort of stimulant being banned by some militaries relatively recently, it may have been ephedrine.
Caffeine is certainly not banned for personnel on general duty.
However, that's not to say you can rock up to training with a whole stack of supplements... because military tests are largely in order to establish what an individual's base fitness/capability it is - so in this case caffeine and creatine supplementation will mask what they are trying to test. PED use is ****ing rife in the military though, probably more so than in elite sports!

 

[goodNumber10]

I'm pretty sure I Reval reading something about caffeine in a concentrated form and creatin and the Aussies post 2003.

I'll see if I can dig it out.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I know that caffiene is banned in the UFC.
On the topic that Rats said, would I mind if De Villiers or Corbisiero took steroids to get over injury ? No, if they used it for rehab. I don't think that we should promote the idea of using steroids in sport though, the social aspect is a massive point. If they stopped using them when they started to train back with their club that would be my prefrence.

As others have said we need to look out for younger players and amauter guys. You can bring in as many rules as you like about using substances whether it is banned or an amount you can take but it wont work outside the pros. My mate took them at the age of 17 and got big, he is about 6 foot and weighed around 16 stone of muscle, he benched 120 and nowadays he dislocates his shoulder frequently (once walking into a door frame) and will soon have to have surgery. Also to add he never played impact sports or do any over physical activites apart from going to the gym, he thinks this is becaus ethe amount he had done when he was 17. Pro rugby players are now hitting the gym at 15, how can you stop guys from getting these things and taking them away from the clubs.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Your friend thinks his shoulder dislocates because he took steroids? Wowza, that's some seriously strained logic.

I see people saying "we don't want to encourage them" but not actually giving a reason other than the implied "drugs are bad, m'kay?!"

 

[TheSaffycen]

No the amount of gym work and the weights that he lifted at a young age. Like when doctors say that the strain of scrummaging from a young age the same thing may have happened with him lifting, the amount he did, from a young age.

 

[ratsapprentice]

So because the lad trained in such a way as to leave his musculature unbalanced enough to allow his shoulder to dislocate ridiculously easily that's why steroids should be banned?
Look, I'm not here to insult anyone, but frankly your mate sounds like a bit of an idiot.

15 year olds in academies will be under the tutelage/instruction of s&c coaches who will ensure that the sort of cock ups that lead to people having the sorts of issues your mate is supposedly having, don't happen.

Alcohol is legal because we trust that the vast majority of people are sensible and will not put themselves or others in danger by their use/mis-use of it.
We accept that some people will just smash themselves silly every weekend, but we don't say "ban it for everyone because the idiots can't be trusted".
The information is readily accecible, if individuals choose to ignore it then that's their problem.

 

[TheSaffycen]

So because the lad trained in such a way as to leave his musculature unbalanced enough to allow his shoulder to dislocate ridiculously easily that's why steroids should be banned?
Look, I'm not here to insult anyone, but frankly your mate sounds like a bit of an idiot.

15 year olds in academies will be under the tutelage/instruction of s&c coaches who will ensure that the sort of cock ups that lead to people having the sorts of issues your mate is supposedly having, don't happen.

Alcohol is legal because we trust that the vast majority of people are sensible and will not put themselves or others in danger by their use/mis-use of it.
We accept that some people will just smash themselves silly every weekend, but we don't say "ban it for everyone because the idiots can't be trusted".
The information is readily accecible, if individuals choose to ignore it then that's their problem.

Yes because young 15 year old guys trying their hardest to become pro players are just so intelligent. I've said already you can't stop them going home and taking these things themselves. The reason alcohol isn't banned is because there is money to be made by the goverment, same with smoking. If you think it's because of anything else than you are wrong, if they could make money from cocaine they would legalise it today.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I've said already you can't stop them going home and taking these things themselves.

So what does banning them achieve?

The government could make tons of money from cocaine and steroids.

And they do, as I've already said, anabolic steroids are legal.
You can get a prescription for Testosterone from your doctor.

 

[TheSaffycen]

So what does banning them achieve?

The government could make tons of money from cocaine and steroids.

And they do, as I've already said, anabolic steroids are legal.
You can get a prescription for Testosterone from your doctor.

I can't get a prescription unless I have low T. Banning them shows that they are not allowed to be used and that if you do you will get a ban, it also shows young guys coming through that steroids are not accepted in our sport.
You say no one has given you a reason for not having steroids unbanned (is that the word ?) well here are some
-For young guys. Stunted growth due to premature skeletal maturation and accelerated puberty changes, and risk of not reaching expected height if steroid use precedes the typical adolescent growth spurt
-Steroid abuse has been associated with cardiovascular diseases (CVD), including heart attacks and strokes, even in athletes younger than 30.
They are copied from http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/anabolic-steroid-abuse/what-are-health-consequences-steroid-abuse as I don't want to say what I belive to be true but is actually an urban myth.

In addition, both men and women who take anabolic steroids can develop any of the following medical conditions:
heart attack or stroke
liver or kidney tumours
high blood pressure (hypertension)
blood clots
fluid retention
high cholesterol

Psychological effects

Misusing anabolic steroids can also cause the following psychological or emotional effects:
aggressive behaviour
mood swings
manic behaviour
hallucinations and delusions
From http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/anabolic-steroid-abuse/Pages/Introduction.aspx

 

[j'nuh]

15 year olds in academies will be under the tutelage/instruction of s&c coaches who will ensure that the sort of cock ups that lead to people having the sorts of issues your mate is supposedly having, don't happen.

And 15 year olds outside academies trying to catch the eye and break into these academies?

Alcohol is legal because we trust that the vast majority of people are sensible and will not put themselves or others in danger by their use/mis-use of it.

Trust doesn't come into it.

It's that due to historical use, it is ingrained in our culture, and trying to ban it would lead to maaaaaaaaaaaassive political issues. (See USA in the prohibition-era.)

If alcohol was a never-seen-before drug, new on the market (so with no historical significance), it would be banned damn fast.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Where am I suggesting that kids take T?

The symptoms of abuse that you've listed are also just that... the result of abuse.
And the same conditions could be given for alcohol... a substance which is heavily promoted by the sport, it's even sponsored by brewers for ****s sake.

Frankly the "psychological effects" are largely bunkum.
Hallucinations and delusions...? :lol:

If alcohol was a never-seen-before drug, new on the market (so with no historical significance), it would be banned damn fast.

Yeah, precisely my point.

This "ban that ****" attitude is largely a result of ignorance and smear campaigns.

You wouldn't be able to get schools to play rugby if it was a new sport introduced today - it would be seen as too dangerous.
"I heard 1 in 3 people die from that new sport".

If people of a medically appropriate age are allowed to use certain substances then there can be a far more open dialogue with the sort of teenagers who definitely should not be using it.
Rather than the situation we have now where kids are mistrustful of the sources of information telling them they shouldn't do it.

 

[TheSaffycen]

How is it a ban that **** attitude ? Alcohol is not good for you, it would be banned on good medical reasoning. Of course it has geat social effects but medically it is bad for you.

Anyway so what are your arguments against heart attacks and strokes appearing in athletes (who are the people we are talking about) before the age of 30 ? How would that then work out if you allow steroids in our sport.

 

[ratsapprentice]

So you think alcohol should be banned?
You would be happy if it was?

I do not believe there are enough unbiased reviews on the subject to properly say.
I've not seen anything which would make me particularly nervous about cycling certain steroids with appropriate advice.

 

[goodNumber10]

15 year olds in academies will be under the tutelage/instruction of s&c coaches who will ensure that the sort of cock ups that lead to people having the sorts of issues your mate is supposedly having, don't happen.

Not all 15 year old's are in academies.

Alcohol is legal because we trust that the vast majority of people are sensible and will not put themselves or others in danger by their use/mis-use of it. We accept that some people will just smash themselves silly every weekend, but we don't say "ban it for everyone because the idiots can't be trusted".
The information is readily accecible, if individuals choose to ignore it then that's their problem.

That's clearly not true with the ongoing issues with binge drinking, drink driving and government/NHS led health and safety initiatives focusing on educating people about those areas.

The problem with alcohol is the genie is out the box, you can't go back.

So you think alcohol should be banned?
You would be happy if it was?

I do not believe there are enough unbiased reviews on the subject to properly say.

I wouldn't personally have a massive issue with it, but then i'm tea total

 

[ratsapprentice]

That's clearly not true with the ongoing issues with binge drinking, drink driving and government/NHS led health and safety initiatives focusing on educating people about those areas.

That's mainly a cultural issue IMO, doesn't really happen in most countries to any real extent.
Drink driving and other dangerous activities resulting from inebriation are luckily irrelevant because steroids don't have any such effects.