Doping in Rugby

[goodNumber10]

you're point was about trusting the masses to be responsible with Alcohol which clearly we don't, by limiting openign hours, % of alcohol and so on we control it - it's not a free for all.

I know you're advocating controlled and supervised use to combat abuse - but I would counter that there is a significant difference between something that can develop physical growth and make or break a sporting career and getting sloshed at the bus stop with the other kids. Education in sport is cr*p at best, and amateurs often do things without supervision mimicking their heroes - that's the biggest, and most fundamental issue for me.

Look i'm not saying you are wrong, i don't know enough about the issues around PED to say it's one way or another, i know the rules and that's about it.

BTW, binge drinking does happen elsewhere, Australia, New Zealand, America, Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia - it's just not reported as much as in the UK.

 

[ratsapprentice]

you're point was about trusting the masses to be responsible with Alcohol which clearly we don't, by limiting openign hours, % of alcohol and so on we control it - it's not a free for all.

It's not far off! :lol:

 

[goodNumber10]

hahaha! true enough!

 

[TheSaffycen]

So you think alcohol should be banned?
You would be happy if it was?

I do not believe there are enough unbiased reviews on the subject to properly say.
I've not seen anything which would make me particularly nervous about cycling certain steroids with appropriate advice.

No I wouldn't be happy, but I wouldn't say it was an smear campaign or out of ignorance.

 

[TRF_heineken]

How is it a ban that **** attitude ? Alcohol is not good for you, it would be banned on good medical reasoning. Of course it has geat social effects but medically it is bad for you.

Anyway so what are your arguments against heart attacks and strokes appearing in athletes (who are the people we are talking about) before the age of 30 ? How would that then work out if you allow steroids in our sport.

Not entirely true. Just like any other drug, the misuse or abuse of alcohol is not good for you. But using it in moderation is actually good for you. Medical doctors often tell their patients to drink whiskey when their blood is thick, or when they had an operation on an artery or heart.

Red wine is another example of alcohol that is good for the body and that the nutrients in the wine is full of antioxidents.

Then you get things like a digestive, to assist your digestive system and prevent stomach cramps.

And what about pure alcohol?? Medical practitioners are probably the people that use it the most! they use it to sterilize knives and needles.

If used properly and in moderation, alcohol is just as beneficial as performance drugs.

 

[goodNumber10]

Not entirely true. Just like any other drug, the misuse or abuse of alcohol is not good for you. But using it in moderation is actually good for you. Medical doctors often tell their patients to drink whiskey when their blood is thick, or when they had an operation on an artery or heart.

Red wine is another example of alcohol that is good for the body and that the nutrients in the wine is full of antioxidents.

Then you get things like a digestive, to assist your digestive system and prevent stomach cramps.

And what about pure alcohol?? Medical practitioners are probably the people that use it the most! they use it to sterilize knives and needles.

If used properly and in moderation, alcohol is just as beneficial as performance drugs.

Yes. But the difference being those things have been studied over decades, if not centuries, and the medical benefits angle is done under advise particular to the individual. PED use is relatively new in the scheme of things, 50 years? Alcohol has been ingrained in cultures for centuries, that doesn't mean it's intrinsically a good thing.

As an example my mum was told to start smoking by her doctor to help with her nerves, this was in the 60's before smoking had a bad rep....people just didn't know the effects.

As with Rats point about it's already legal to buy and use Steroids in the UK. It is, but it is again short course and under medical advise and supervision where the effects of the drug are mitigated by a professional against the medical issues of the person receiving them.

That isn't the case with PED's and even if regulated self prescription is a huge issue with this kind of stuff.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yes. But the difference being those things have been studied over decades, if not centuries, and the medical benefits angle is done under advise particular to the individual. PED use is relatively new in the scheme of things, 50 years? Alcohol has been ingrained in cultures for centuries, that doesn't mean it's intrinsically a good thing.

As an example my mum was told to start smoking by her doctor to help with her nerves, this was in the 60's before smoking had a bad rep....people just didn't know the effects.

As with Rats point about it's already legal to buy and use Steroids in the UK. It is, but it is again short course and under medical advise and supervision where the effects of the drug are mitigated by a professional against the medical issues of the person receiving them.

That isn't the case with PED's and even if regulated self prescription is a huge issue with this kind of stuff.

Yeah well, just because PED's aren't as tried and tested as Alcohol, doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be put in a different category.

I haven't ever seen a PED Anonymous or rehabilitation programme being advertised.

There are so many studies and prescribed ways of using PED's that it can be used as self medication. Hell, I've done it. Not the injection type, but I have used PED's. Just like cough syrup, nasal spray, cigarettes etc. there are warning lables on the packaging and a description of how to properly use it. If you don't use it correctly, then suffer the consequences.

My GP even gave me advice that I must buy a herb supplement of Dandelion Root, as it creates a protective layer around your liver to prevent serious damage to your liver. For me this is of great importance, as I had my gal-bladder removed when I was still in school due to a car accident. And because I don't have the gal-bladder, my Liver has to absorb more toxins than before.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think people are being a bit disingenuous by lumping all medically used steroids under PED's. The warning labels are not on there to stop you using it as a PED, it's to let people know there are banned substances in the product, if an athlete is prescribed a banned substance by a medical practitioner it's recorded and declared it's not just an immediate ban there is mitigation involved.

The major difference as far as i can tell is longterm use outside of medical advice.

 

[Mikel92]

I haven't ever seen a PED Anonymous or rehabilitation programme being advertised.

No, you won't have. That's surely because we haven't normalized it and the genie, for lack of a better phrase, is still in the bottle.

I still think people are losing sight of the broader arguments. Regardless of "I've done it and I was hunky dory" a lot of people won't be, they'll assume any concoction of anything is fine if there's suddenly some loophole in the Rugby laws. And that just isn't true, they could seriously harm themselves and fall under any number of ailments listed on Government health websites. I mean, do you not get some of these things via your GP? We'd be asking a lot of the medical community to accommodate our drug beliefs. Who would be liable for negligence if you started getting all these cases popping up? World Rugby? The GP? who gave out these substances which aren't a good idea to get hooked on while running about. I'm sure that would be a total transformation of ethics not just in the sporting world, but medically as well. And why should they bend over for us, when all we're offering is to clog up their system more. Not really a fair trade is it.

Personally I think it would see a dip in global playing numbers, poor public perception of Rugby, uninformed people hurting themselves thinking it'll be fine, etc. I'm still kinda gobsmacked this is even a proposition to be honest, and I'm a pretty open minded guy.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yes. But the difference being those things have been studied over decades, if not centuries, and the medical benefits angle is done under advise particular to the individual. PED use is relatively new in the scheme of things, 50 years?

Anabolics have been synthesised and used since the 30's. Use among bodybuilders and weightlifters became widespread in the 50's/60's.

As with Rats point about it's already legal to buy and use Steroids in the UK. It is, but it is again short course and under medical advise and supervision where the effects of the drug are mitigated by a professional against the medical issues of the person receiving them. That isn't the case with PED's and even if regulated self prescription is a huge issue with this kind of stuff.

Nah... you don't need any medical supervision at all. It's illegal to sell (obviously outside of the medical realm).
Possession and import for personal use is perfectly legal.

- - - Updated - - -

I still think people are losing sight of the broader arguments. Regardless of "I've done it and I was hunky dory" a lot of people won't be, they'll assume any concoction of anything is fine if there's suddenly some loophole in the Rugby laws. And that just isn't true, they could seriously harm themselves and fall under any number of ailments listed on Government health websites. I mean, do you not get some of these things via your GP? We'd be asking a lot of the medical community to accommodate our drug beliefs. Who would be liable for negligence if you started getting all these cases popping up? World Rugby? The GP? who gave out these substances which aren't a good idea to get hooked on while running about. I'm sure that would be a total transformation of ethics not just in the sporting world, but medically as well. And why should they bend over for us.

The issue is not one of health... http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/playing_with_steroids

 

[TRF_heineken]

No, you won't have. That's surely because we haven't normalized it and the genie, for lack of a better phrase, is still in the bottle.

I still think people are losing sight of the broader arguments. Regardless of "I've done it and I was hunky dory" a lot of people won't be, they'll assume any concoction of anything is fine if there's suddenly some loophole in the Rugby laws. And that just isn't true, they could seriously harm themselves and fall under any number of ailments listed on Government health websites. I mean, do you not get some of these things via your GP? We'd be asking a lot of the medical community to accommodate our drug beliefs. Who would be liable for negligence if you started getting all these cases popping up? World Rugby? The GP? who gave out these substances which aren't a good idea to get hooked on while running about. I'm sure that would be a total transformation of ethics not just in the sporting world, but medically as well. And why should they bend over for us, when all we're offering is to clog up their system more. Not really a fair trade is it.

Personally I think it would see a dip in global playing numbers, poor public perception of Rugby, uninformed people hurting themselves thinking it'll be fine, etc. I'm still kinda gobsmacked this is even a proposition to be honest, and I'm a pretty open minded guy.

I think this thread is going a bit off the rail regarding the topic at hand.

Surely at proffessional level there are more than enough medical experts to assist the players in using PED's correctly. If it's allowed, then it also doesn't necessarily mean that we will start seeing players doing ads for PED products in magazines or on the tv.

Using PED's and Marketing PED's are 2 different things and it will in all likelihood be a voluntary agreement between the player and the medical staff. It's after all still the choice of the player to use it or not.

 

[Jaguares]

I have not problems about it. Sports with high training like cycling, american football, boxing, MMA, crossfit or rugby, in many cases the steroids are necessary, because the level of training is inhumane.

Generally people who are against are people who play soft sports like football soccer, tennis, chess, handball and soft sports such as those.

If you play a sport where you can be competitive with 50 kgs, it's easy to be against steroids. But if you play a tough sport, where you must train for many hours per day in inhumane training sessions, then you are going to see steroids as normal.

I'm not in favor of overuse but I'm not hypocritical and I would allow it in offseasons, when players are prepared for the entire year. It would only be an act of sincerity, because is what happens right now. In boxing or MMA for example, the fighters have 2 or 3 fights per year, then they have between 4-5 months to prepare for a fight, enough to make a cycle steroids and then come clean to the fight, professional rugby is even harder because you have only 2 or 3 months of offseason and then you must play nonstop more than 30 games per year

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Allowing doping will just make an already elite sport just further out of the reach of 3rd world countries/1st world poor.

 

[ratsapprentice]

No more so than state of the art training centres or coaching.
If you are concerned about that then establishing funding caps would be far more effective.

 

[Jaguares]

There are a lot of fantasy regarding the steroids. People think that if you drink or inject steroids in three days you become a superhero like the incredible Hulk.

False, false and false.

People who think that, usually never used steroids or never played a sport at the highest level. Steroids aren't magic, you have to train very hard to get results and after you must keep training hard all year to maintain the results you got.

I have used steroids, I have no problem in recognizing and I can assure you that I didn't get the same results every time. It's a separate science, for all people don't work the same drugs or the same cycles, and if you don't train hard not to get what you want. Steroids are helpful, necessary, but if you don't train hard are useless.

Ignorant people think that steroids allow that men fat and lazy can match professional athletes. Lie! Steroids help those who train hard and are dedicated.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

No more so than state of the art training centres or coaching.
If you are concerned about that then establishing funding caps would be far more effective.

But it will add more fuel to what is already a fire and why swap one set of regulations for two when there is no real gain to be had?

My arguments make two assumptions though;

1 - that 'we' want rugby to be a truly global and accessable sport
2 - that 'we' care for skill over mass if I can put it rather bluntly

If anything we should be moving toward those goals rathr than away from them IMO which opening up doping will do for a surety.

 

[Jaguares]

Allowing doping will just make an already elite sport just further out of the reach of 3rd world countries/1st world poor.

Steroids are very cheap, in fact that's the reason why many amateur athletes use steroids, they are cheaper than legal supplements such as amino acids, creatines and things like that.

Also many third world countries are producing steroids like Mexico. Americans buy steroids from Mexico because in America are banned and in Mexico aren't.

Steroids are not difficult to manufacture, many are for veterinary use (the most dangerous) so any laboratory can produce it.

Besides the money isn't everything, the best athletes in world rugby are the Super Rugby players but they don't have the highest salaries. The Japanese rugby pays better than Super Rugby so...

 

[goodNumber10]

Nah... you don't need any medical supervision at all.

Even with Asthma you need a doctor to get a prescription, and when your course has run then you return and have another consultation - that is under supervision. Even more so if it's for treating cancer etc...

It's illegal to sell (obviously outside of the medical realm).
Possession and import for personal use is perfectly legal.

That's a very grey area, you cannot buy them by mail order, so you must import them on you - i.e. they must be in your possession as you cross the border you cannot buy them online/send by post etc... even then they cannot be pharmaceutical grade which is what is needed.

So it's a bit misleading when people say they are legal, becuase you would only be able to bring very small amounts into the country so not enough to make it worth while, or you'd run the risk of being done for intent to supply.

The issue is not one of health... http://www.t-nation.com/free_online..._performance_interviews/playing_with_steroids

of course there is an issue of health. there is with any drug prescription or not.

 

[ratsapprentice]

As we've established though - you do not need to have any involvement with a medical professional in order to legally obtain and use most anabolic steroids.

I disagree, the amount that people import (if they don't buy from a dealer/online) personally is enough to be worthwhile, simply because people do it.
They don't do it very often, because it's not difficult to buy them in person, and if they do then they aren't really at risk of being in trouble unless they are buying heinous amounts of gear and the police consider that the person is buying with intent to supply.

There is no real issue of health IMO, it's an ethical issue.
Is it possible to seriously **** yourself up with high volumes/certain types of steroids - absolutely.
Is it possible to safely use anabolic steroids for non-essential/non-medical purposes - absolutely.

I don't believe that PED's are banned because of any supposed dangers posed to users' health. They are banned because people see their use as cheating.
(I'm not saying everything on WADA's banned substance list is safe to use, BTW, I'm sure that some of that **** will have you growing arms out of your arsehole...)

 

[goodNumber10]

As we've established though - you do not need to have any involvement with a medical professional in order to legally obtain and use most anabolic steroids.

That's a different point to the medical supervision point, and as i said it's a grey area as to what exactly you can and can't have.

I disagree, the amount that people import (if they don't buy from a dealer/online) personally is enough to be worthwhile, simply because people do it.
They don't do it very often, because it's not difficult to buy them in person, and if they do then they aren't really at risk of being in trouble unless they are buying heinous amounts of gear and the police consider that the person is buying with intent to supply.

what? you can't buy from a dealer online, it is illegal.

There is no real issue of health IMO, it's an ethical issue.

of course there is. there is with any longterm drug use, prescription or not.