I hate nitpicking forum posts, but you leave me no choice. My stance is clear as the light of day, but alrighty then let's head into and get our hands dirty, ANSWERED IN
BOULDH !!!!:
Okay, lets debate this. But what are you're actual stances? In your first paragraph you mention the topic is the balance of power between NH and SH but don't clarify your stance. Then you mention a draw against Argentina
I mention Argentina because whether or not they are SH themselves, that still contributes to the point that S.A. were very underwhelming that year, and is to be added to their very mediocre, lackluster year as they tied with young England at home, had a very mediocre TRC, and a downright worrying EOYT despite the 3 wins.
but that is beside the point as they are in the SH so too are NZ and Aus; the only teams we lost to that (rebuilding) year; 1/1 vs Aus and 0/2 NZ in 2012. You mention 2012 as a very poor year for Bok rugby but while it wasn't 2009 it ccertainly wasn't our worst and in the context of NH vs SH it was actually something of a bright point;
Whether they won or not really isn't a big point to be made. They were at full strength on a number of tests, and still looked easily beatable. They managed a 10-21 score in Murrayfield ffs, that's a win but if S.A. settle for that, c'mon. Let's not play around here stormer, 2012 was not flattering for the Boks. The All-Blacks put 50+ past them. Sorry for repeating this so often, but you unnecessarily force me too.
2012 for SA saw 6 games against NH opposition ending in 2 wins and a draw at home in the series against England and 3 wins on tour from a supposedly undeniably unimpressive SA. Where does that leave us?
refer to above comments. Again, as if results alone were all that mattered in pro sports, and as if that was a good year for S.A. Please man. Let's talk for real here.
Argentina can't be part of the discussion here, if England had a 6N under their belt then that is still 5 test games more than what SA had under new management. Saying something like a draw and 2 wins against an English side with 6 months on us and small margin wins over 'mediocre' Scottish, Irish and English sides would sound horridly arrogant from a SA poster and doesn't sound much better when not. What do we have to do then? Beat every one every game by 50? And remember that is the same English side that beat NZ in the same year just the very next week..
It matters not how things sound and who the interlocutor is. It matters that it's a fact England were very mediocre until they erupted later that tour to beat NZ in exploding fashion. They had a pretty bad showing against Australia, and had nothing to show for except dedication at the breakdown against the Boks. Not exactly great. And S.A. were at full strength, if not for Habana missing that tour. England at the beginning of the tour vs. Aus and S.A. has literally nothing to do with Eng vs NZ in that last match. Unrecognizable, and I think they felt so bad having such a bad tour they felt they had nothing to lose and would give it their all and found a confidence that match they never managed to get back and produced an incredibly lackluster, uttterly unimpressive 2013 6N, despite the wins, which ultimately are good, but not enough.
I'm going home now to miss the traffic but will get back here soon to finish my points..
I don't see why you're making me work so hard for this. It makes it sound like I'm dragging S.A. down and emphasizing it. Of course you focus just on what I said about the Boks lol, which is hopefully accepted and we can move on, and haven't commented on Australia:
in retrospect, they had a fairly quiet 2012 year, with their hosting Wales a success but let's not forget how Wales went from 2012 6N GS champs to an 8-game losing streak WRECK, and that's the tour that started it. They also lost to Scotland at home. In TRC, pretty quiet (remember the 22-0 vs NZ and getting smashed in S.A.). And then their EOYT was pretty mediocre themselves despite the 3 of 4. They get smashed in France 33-6, win in England, but then only beat Italy by a 19-22 and a prayer Italy would miss that final penalty, and then edge the slumping Welsh by 2 points. Early-mid 2013 is their worst period in decades.
So whether I use SH vs SH or more pertinently NH vs SH to illustrate my points, the topic is the balance of power betw NH and SH, and a look at the SH teams in particular in detail (not just the win/loss column) during that in-between-RWC between the end of 2011 and today. And I make the point that clearly the SH teams have had a bit of a slow start right after that 2011 RWC, and a rude awakening so to speak, and their dominant aura seemed quite dissipated from eras past. No, the records don't really show that, but again in the finer details of a game-per-game assessment, and I've watched every Tier 1 confrontation since that 2011 RWC, it's quite easy to see the gap had closed quite considerably during that span of say after the RWC til only recently, as all 3 of the SANZAR nations have replenished and look fearsome as ever going into this next RWC. With SA and AUS in particular looking menacing, and re-establishing this sort of 'natural order of things' in world Rugby, I feel.
I find it so strange that so many SHers still think Hayman is the best 3 in the world.
I mean he's still good, but he's nowhere near as good now as he was even at Newcastle.
Disagreed. SH maybe, but people in France added to that list. I dunno about best TH in the world, but he is the best TH in the Top 14, and the Top 14 has some pretty darn good ones. All fans on Rugbyrama voted for him as the best, including me, because in the Top14 with the importance of a good scrum, he has been an absolutely immovable boulder. Fukng impressive as fk. Scrummagers are rarely that unconditionally consistent, they have off days, packpedal a couple of times. This guy is...whew...but he's old and slow in the loose, for sure. So he can't be considering the best 3 in the world...And I really don't know who that is btw. I know TRF voted Figallo as the best TH, but he's been out so long, and who's to say he is objectively ?
With Mas going from the best to absolutely obsolete in a few months, Figallo out...I really don't know right now. Kepu ?! :lol:
