Dylan Hartley charged over Headbutt

[Jbobo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32891054


Looks like Hartley could be heading towards a 6th Ban. He's already missed 50 weeks of rugby due to offenses including eye gouging and biting. Now i'm not a huge fan of the guy, but he's been a damned good player at times and looked like he was coming into some form which bode well for England in the World Cup. The article states that the chances are he will miss the warm ups at the very least.

What do you all think? Will he be given another chance, or is his time up?

Terrible record either way and i'll be interested in seeing what happens with this one.


Edit: Just noticed that @smartcooky has posted about this in the semi final thread. He also put it much better than i did, so i'll just post what he has stated below...

Hartley cited for a head-butt

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/201...mpton-saracens

Honestly, if Hartley cops a big ban and misses the RWC, then IMO that will increase England's chances of winning it. Hartley is a loose cannon with an appalling disciplinary record that almost descends to Danny Grewcock levels. Foe mine, he's a liability for any team he plays in, and the risk factor associated with having him play in a major match is not outweighed by his skills as a player.

For the record, has lack of discipline includes incidents of eye-gouging, biting and punching, as detailed here:

• April 2007 - Banned for 26 weeks for eye-gouging Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O'Connor.
• March 2012 - Banned for eight weeks for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris in a Six Nations match.
• December 2012 - Banned for two weeks for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best in a Heineken Cup match.
• May 2013 - Sent off in the Aviva Premiership final and banned for 11 weeks after being found guilty of verbally abusing a match official (this one caused him to miss selection for the 2013 Lions tours).
• December 2014 - Sent off and banned for three weeks for striking Matt Smith with his elbow during the Aviva Premiership match between his Northampton Saints side and Leicester Tigers

Not listed is the raft of yellow cards he has received

 

[TRF_heineken]

Thug!!!

He is a habitual offender, and while he plays hard, he is a liability for a team. If I was Lancaster I wouldn't select him for the World Cup squad, as his discipline will be the biggest problem, and teams tend to play a more defensive playstyle and try to take advantage from other team's ill discipline. And a red card in a World Cup could mean the end of a team's chances.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

and while he plays hard

The thing with Hartley is that he doesn't particularly play that hard.
He carries, rucks and tackles well but it's not particularly aggressive/ferocious - with other guys in his ilk (Bakkies etc.) they were trying to be the "enforcer" in their side, put the other team off, sometimes even put them out of the game, with their digs etc. Hartley just seems to do it because he knows no better.

 

[TRF_heineken]

The thing with Hartley is that he doesn't particularly play that hard.
He carries, rucks and tackles well but it's not particularly aggressive/ferocious - with other guys in his ilk (Bakkies etc.) they were trying to be the "enforcer" in their side, put the other team off, sometimes even put them out of the game, with their digs etc. Hartley just seems to do it because he knows no better.

I think he's too dumb to understand the consequences of his actions. He focuses more on off-the-ball stuff than the game itself. I get that he plays the enforcer role, but he has no idea of doing certain things less obvious.

Bakkies was great at that, we all know that kiss-face he always makes, that little gesture is bound to drive an opposing player mad, I know I would go into a rage if he would've done that to me.

 

[Every Time Ref]

Harley's the opposite, he's the easiest guy in the world to wind up. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that Jamie George had said something intentionally to wind him up, knowing a training squad place might open up.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't think Hartley is dumb, he just has absolutely zero self control.

 

[goodNumber10]

it's a ridiculous citation, and if it was anyone else it wouldn't even be going to review.

It's about as close to a head butt as Sheridan on Dunning:

- - - Updated - - -

Thug!!!

He is a habitual offender, and while he plays hard, he is a liability for a team. If I was Lancaster I wouldn't select him for the World Cup squad, as his discipline will be the biggest problem, and teams tend to play a more defensive playstyle and try to take advantage from other team's ill discipline. And a red card in a World Cup could mean the end of a team's chances.

how many cards has he got in an england shirt?

 

[TRF_heineken]

it's a ridiculous citation, and if it was anyone else it wouldn't even be going to review.

It's about as close to a head butt as Sheridan on Dunning:

- - - Updated - - -



how many cards has he got in an england shirt?

I don't know, but I do remember a biting incident in a six nations match against Ireland a few years ago for which he got 8 weeks...

 

[smartcooky]

it's a ridiculous citation, and if it was anyone else it wouldn't even be going to review.

It's about as close to a head butt as Sheridan on Dunning:

Well, not so ridiculous it seems. He has been banned for 4 weeks.

 

[goodNumber10]

Well, not so ridiculous it seems. He has been banned for 4 weeks.

i know, and I still think it's a ridiculous citation... i'm no hartley apologist but i don't think there was anything in it, and i think if it had been anyone else it wouldn't even have got looked at (somewhat his own fault i suppose).

 

[Five Meters Out]

i know, and I still think it's a ridiculous citation... i'm no hartley apologist but i don't think there was anything in it, and i think if it had been anyone else it wouldn't even have got looked at (somewhat his own fault i suppose).

It was soft! He's been put out on reputation

 

[Jbobo]

To be fair, being banned 5 times at a total of 50 weeks is probably a bit much already...

Disclaimer - I've not seen the actual incident yet, just read about it.

 

[steve9145]

dylan hartley

should he be in the england squad ?

 

[smartcooky]

Is Hartley a bit dumb?

Does he not nderstand that in the modern game, they have five pairs of eyes (Ref, 2x ARs TMO and CO) all watching with a dozen different camera angles, so that his sneaky litle cheap shots are going to be seen and dealt with?

 

[j'nuh]

Mixed opinions on it. I do think he was hard done by, punished more by technicality than reason. But it is what it is. He's going to miss the build up and the first match, and that's not something to ignore. We would need to field three hookers in the squad to be able to keep him in contention, and I'm not sure if that was in Lancaster's plans in a small squad. He'd then have Wales and Australia as his first games back after so long out. There's also that Lancaster has laid down repeated warnings on behaviour, and he's risking undermining his own message by giving so many chances to a player that seems to ignore his messages. On the other hand, Lancaster has invested a lot of time into Hartley, and even without the match practice, Hartley can continue to train with the squad, and he has heaps more experience than the alternatives.

 

[steve9145]

i have mixed opinions too.
for those who have never played front row or even rugby, anyone, at any level that puts his head into the cauldron is worthy of respect.
i can only imagine what it must be like at the highest level.
that said, games are won and lost on yellow cards.
hartley has a reputation that the referees and tmo,s may find difficult to ignore.
mr lancaster has also made it clear about the level of behaviour thats reqiured.
that said, england will need 3 hookers, tom young ok but webber and cowan dickie, not so sure.
jury still out for me.

 

[steve9145]

just saw the incident and i agree, not much in it.
just macho posturing.
lots worse happens without citations.
his reputation proceeds him.

 

[Jbobo]

I've seen the clip and it's hard to conclusively analyse whether it is completely illegal or purposeful. But it does look like he's lead with his head and it looks like at least a cheap shot.

If we assume he's guilty, as he allegedly admits, then after the previous times he's been banned, why would you not expect him to receive a harsher penalty than usual?
Some people should advocate a very very long suspension for continual offenses and I can understand that, as you cannot take this latest arguably more minor offense on its own. In the end he is still doing these things in a regular basis.

 

[Peat]

His most recent ban before this had time added on to reflect his awful disciplinary record. If this ban didn't, then I smell the hand of Lancaster and an impending inclusion after much huffing and puffing. I would love to be wrong on that.

He should be nowhere near the squad. He's already somehow got let off being banned on his final warning; the simple truth is that he is incapable of not going over the edge. He is not capable of that level of restraint. He is a disciplinary sanction waiting to happen and England don't need that. I accept he's probably one of our three best hookers at the moment but that says more about the other players than him.

I do not agree with the ban. It's basically the same as all the posturing and handbags that go on every other game and to single this one incident out for a ban is horrendously inconsistent. It's another example on why rugby's law enforcement could really use a massive overhaul. But, while common sense says this is idiocy, they are technically correct and it couldn't happen to a more deserving person. Hartley's an idiot for letting himself get in this position... you know, *again*

 

[steve9145]

maybe we are all getting too sensitive.
i watch almost all live senior worldwide rugby, both league and union and the incident wouldnt merit comment.
one aspect i feel should be eradicated is applauding the opposition when they concede a penalty, its just not right and leads to antagonism.