Eddie Jones ‘Consultant’ Role

[bushytop]

So it came out last week that Eddie Jones has been a consultant for Japanese side Suntory Sungoliath for around 20 years and therefore for the entirety of his stint as England’s Head Coach... something the RFU took no issue with.

It has now come out that as a result of that news story, Warren Gatland and the Welsh team management are furious. The reason being that last season representatives of the Sungoliaths approached the WRU about the possibility of spending some time with an elite Tier One Test Team environment for development purposes. The Wales management opened the doors to the Sungoliaths and let them in on two separate occasions for one week durations... one of which was during this recent 6 Nations.

Hmmm... whether or not any of the information gleaned by the SunGoliaths was passed on to Jones or not, that is a pretty big conflict of interest, and the obvious observation I would make is... if this wasn’t at least even a little bit dodgy, why didn’t the Sungoliaths approach the RFU to spend time with the English set up, given their special relationship with Jones?

 

[Every Time Ref]

That does sound decidedly dodgy. What’s the source for this - is there an article or something?

 

[bushytop]

That does sound decidedly dodgy. What’s the source for this - is there an article or something?

It’s a WoL article (which will put people off) but this particular story appears to be legit... unless Eddie Jones &/the Sungoliaths &/the RFU refute it.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/furious-wales-caught-up-world-16543179

 

[General Melchett]

Didn't Warren Gatland attend some of the other home nations training camps/sessions in his role as Lions head coach? He also had the luxury of working with opposition players on tour allowing him to work out strengths, weaknesses etc. which I'm sure he/Wales would have benefited from in some way afterwards.

 

[bushytop]

Didn't Warren Gatland attend some of the other home nations training camps/sessions in his role as Lions head coach? He also had the luxury of working with opposition players on tour allowing him to work out strengths, weaknesses etc. which I'm sure he/Wales would have benefited from in some way afterwards.

I think the difference here would be ‘full disclosure’. If you know something, and you want to keep something privy you are able to do so, if you are not told about ‘relationships’ the decision to retain information is a far more clouded one.

The thing is, even though Wales got the victory over England in the 6N, Gatland was already ‘preparing’ the Wales for the World Cup in numerous ways. If that information has been transferred to Jones and Wales end up playing England at any point of the World Cup it is an undoubted issue.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Wales oversight not to check.
If they actively hid it then that's a problem, if not then Wales just need to be more careful

 

[bushytop]

Wales oversight not to check.
If they actively hid it then that's a problem, if not then Wales just need to be more careful

It’s an opinion, would be interesting to know if you felt that way if it had only just come out that Gatland had a 20 year assignment with the let’s say the Dynabulls... after the RFU had twice let them into the England camp.

It’s possible you would but it’s also possible you may be calling outrage... and to my knowledge no one knew about Eddies relationship to the Sungoliaths until last week.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Wales oversight not to check.
If they actively hid it then that's a problem, if not then Wales just need to be more careful

I’m with Gatland. Sungoliaths should have actively disclosed.

More to the point doesn’t the England job keep Jones busy enough?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Yeah that's not a good look for the Sungoliath's. Not disclosing an obvious conflict of interest is shite enough, whether an information of any worth was passed on is immaterial. I doubt there's too many massive secrets that can be passed on to England in all honesty.

 

[bushytop]

Yeah that's not a good look for the Sungoliath's...

... or Jones I’d argue.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

If it's public knowledge, then it's a case of WRU doing their due diligence.
If it's a private thing, then it's a case that Sungoliaths needed to disclose.

I can't be bothered to check which it is; but he has spent 2 stints coaching Suntory (including his first coaching role); so obviously has a place in his heart for them.
That he's maintained an official connection with them is news to me; but it's also not my due diligence to do.

ETA: This is what Google translate tels me is on the Sungoliath's website about Eddie:
"※ 4: Eddie Jones = Eddie Jones
Australian person
Former Australian coach (2001-2005)
Suntory Rugby Club Advisor since 1998 (during ongoing)"

FTR: I went to https://www.suntory.co.jp/culture-sports/sungoliath/ and put "eddie jones" into the search bar; and asked google to transalte the page I was given. Easy to find if you're searching for Eddie, quite possibly not if you're just hunting for associations.

... or Jones I’d argue.

I'd be very surprised if this story isn't the first he heard about it.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I do think the Sungoliaths had a responsibility to actively inform Wales rather than expect them to ask to be honest. Wales were basically granting them a favour, to fail to mention something which you know would be significant is 100% shady. And their failure to volunteer that information does definitely raise the possibility that Jones was involved, fairly or otherwise

EDIT: This is based on the assumption SG approached Wales not the other way round, which would change the burden of responsibility somewhat.

More to the point doesn’t the England job keep Jones busy enough?

I mean yes, forgetting the outrage from Welsh fans for a minute, there is legit cause for outrage from England fans about this!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Why would England fans be outrage?
Unless you know exactly what he does with the Sungoliaths.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

You can tell it's the off season when people are getting bent out of shape over something so minor/insignificant.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

... or Jones I’d argue.

Possibly but there's every chance he had nothing to do with it.

 

[bushytop]

I'd be very surprised if this story isn't the first he heard about it.

Maybe, maybe not. When trying to read between the lines on a story when there are two very distinct ‘sides’ to what is the possible truth of the matter, the best signifiers are ones that stick out like sore thumbs. As I mentioned in the original post, the fact that the Sungoliaths (who have a twenty year relationship with the head coach of a nation the majority of the world feel is at a level above Wales... you only have to read this forum to conclude that) approached competitor of Eddie Jones (whom they would have a tricky away fixture to that very 6N and could well be playing in a World Cup QF later that year) to join up with rather than approach good ol’ uncle Ed to spend time with the ‘premier’ British test squad just ‘feels’ suspect.

EDIT: This is based on the assumption SG approached Wales not the other way round, which would change the burden of responsibility somewhat.

The original article... and all likelihood really suggest the Sungoliaths approached Wales. Apparently the WRU (as well as all other major unions I’d imagine) field requests like this fairly often. It would be strange for a Tier One Union to just start offering these kinds of experiences out to random club sides.

 

[bushytop]

You can tell it's the off season when people are getting bent out of shape over something so minor/insignificant.

I’ve said it once and undoubtedly this won’t be the last time, if the shoe was on the other foot I’m pretty sure that your normally perfect shape may seem slightly skewed .

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Eddie Jones spends 3 weeks a year with the Japanese club during his holiday.
WOW stop the presses.

Unlike Gatland, Schmidt, Hansen, Cheika, etc etc Jones is allowed and has no involvement in our club game because the clubs don't want him or any England coach to have it.

 

[bushytop]

Eddie Jones spends 3 weeks a year with the Japanese club during his holiday.
WOW stop the presses.

Unlike Gatland, Schmidt, Hansen, Cheika, etc etc Jones is allowed and has no involvement in our club game because the clubs don't want him or any England coach to have it.

Not the story.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Not the story.

Was replying to England fans being outrage. End of the day the it's is on topic somewhat.

On the Wales topic, it's a non story unless you have all the details.
Using WOL as the main source to the story already means i have to shift through the BS speculation that gets thrown in with some facts to padded out the article and get more clicks.


When was this taken place? Before the England game or after for example.

It even says "There is no evidence to suggest that there have been any underhand tactics utilised by Jones."


"But there could now be concerns among the Wales hierarchy that information gathered could potentially be used against them at the World Cup later this year."
If that is their concern then why the **** let any teams outside Wales train with you in a RWC year LOL.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I’ve said it once and undoubtedly this won’t be the last time, if the shoe was on the other foot I’m pretty sure that your normally perfect shape may seem slightly skewed .

Considering Gatland himself viewed England training sessions and had full access to England players before/during the lions tour - no, not really.


I really don't get what's the big deal here - EJ sent spies into the Wales camp from a foreign club he's a casual consultant for?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

"But there could now be concerns among the Wales hierarchy that information gathered could potentially be used against them at the World Cup later this year."
If that is their concern then why the **** let any teams outside Wales train with you in a RWC year LOL.

And why would Wales give their world cup game plan to a visiting side?
This is nothing more than WOL looking to stir up drama from the anti-England brigade

 

[bushytop]

Considering Gatland himself viewed England training sessions and had full access to England players before/during the lions tour - no, not really.


I really don't get what's the big deal here - EJ sent spies into the Wales camp from a foreign club he's a casual consultant for?

What, because a subject that involves the head coach of the number 4 test Rugby team in the world and the number 2 test team in the world is being discussed on a forum that is called ‘The Rugby Forum’ that makes it a big deal does it? Imho no, the posters discussing this subject are just doing what this forum was created for, discussing subjects involving rugby.

Does ‘What Film have you just seen?’ or ‘MMA/UFC Thread’ constitute big deals to you?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Jeeze.

No one said it shouldn't be discussed, at all or even close to that. I'm just saying I don't think this story is a big deal at all.
Club that Jones has casual association with trains with Wales - if the Wales management are "furious" and the fans of either England or Wales are "outraged" then it's been blown out of all proportion.

 

[bushytop]

Jeeze.

No one said it shouldn't be discussed, at all or even close to that. I'm just saying I don't think this story is a big deal at all.
Club that Jones has casual association with trains with Wales - if the Wales management are "furious" and the fans of either England or Wales are "outraged" then it's been blown out of all proportion.

And that’s fine, I’d agree with you that as things stand (unless further ‘incriminating’ facts are brought to light) it isn’t a particularly big deal... but just because it’s being discussed doesn’t mean we think it’s a bid deal neither.

Rather than discuss it though ‘some’ of the English posters (apart from @Every Time Ref & @Old Hooker) seem happy to sweep it under the carpet. All I’m saying is, that coincidence ‘may’ have something to do with subconscious rose-tinted glasses... just saying. And by the same token, ‘maybe’ the fact I’m discussing it has a little to do with the daffodil-tints I so catchingly sport .

 

[Every Time Ref]

I think it’s idiotic to assume there is definitely something untoward going on, and (in a move that shocks no one) WOL have definitely thrown a **** ton of innuendo in alongside very few tangible details in order to rile up their base. No doubt there. And as a result there’ll be some morons on the Welsh side (and probably other countries, because, y’know, it’s the English...) spitting feathers and leaping to conclusions about what might well be an innocuous set of circumstances. And I really understand getting defensive because we English get an extraordinary amount of that crap from those sources.

But I also agree with bushytop that it is not reasonable to dismiss this as “there is absolutely nothing in this whatsoever”. There could be. It’s worth a conversation. It’s reasonable to question what EJ’s connection to the SGs is, and why they didn’t disclose it. It looks potentially shady, and questions should be asked.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Whilst it sounds dodgy, I'm struggling to see realistically what sort of information of any sort of value could have been gained. Are the Welsh side seriously claiming that they rolled out their world cup tactics to some random visiting club side as part of a showcase of T1 training techniques? Somehow I doubt they showed the club side anything England haven't already seen multiple times. Even when Wales beat us in the 6N, it wasn't due to pulling out some sudden new tactic. If anything England were the ones that pulled out new tactics this year, with the side we saw this year playing very differently to the one last year. Wales have not been great innovators under Gatland. They play hard and accurately but I don't think much of Wales gameplan is a particularly surprise to any team.

 

[bushytop]

Whilst it sounds dodgy, I'm struggling to see realistically what sort of information of any sort of value could have been gained. Are the Welsh side seriously claiming that they rolled out their world cup tactics to some random visiting club side as part of a showcase of T1 training techniques? Somehow I doubt they showed the club side anything England haven't already seen multiple times. Even when Wales beat us in the 6N, it wasn't due to pulling out some sudden new tactic. If anything England were the ones that pulled out new tactics this year, with the side we saw this year playing very differently to the one last year. Wales have not been great innovators under Gatland. They play hard and accurately but I don't think much of Wales gameplan is a particularly surprise to any team.

What about our strength and conditioning, which I’d argue is as good as it gets? While England’s, well they’ve dropped off in the second half of at least 50% of the games they played last season. Maybe (if this was one big conspiracy, which I’m not saying it is... yet, without further evidence) that would the place to start with ‘what info would England have possibly been after... from Way-yuls of all places?’

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What about our strength and conditioning, which I’d argue is as good as it gets?

Your strength and conditioning coach was England's for like a decade, and was also lions multiple times - I doubt he has some super secret that no one knows about.

I don't think our conditioning issues are down to our S&C sessions as much as they're down to club vs country committments. We can look like the fittest side in the world and also like knackered grannies in the same season

 

[bushytop]

Your strength and conditioning coach was England's for like a decade, and was also lions multiple times - I doubt he has some super secret that no one knows about.

I don't think our conditioning issues are down to our S&C sessions as much as they're down to club vs country committments. We can look like the fittest side in the world and also like knackered grannies in the same season

It’s a good argument, I was just pointing out that it doesn’t have to be our attack that could have been something to gain advantage over... if indeed there was anything nefarious going on, which of course there was not .

How about something that starts with d and ends with fence?