England 2022/23

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I mean I've not played rugby to a high level so I don't actually know, and this is very much a question….

Don't all teams play with structure? Does anyone play heads up rugby? If if they are looking for gaps I'm assuming they have a plan to manipulate the defence and have a plan to exploit them?

Is heads up rugby a real thing at that level?

 

[BrokenWing]

The way I see it, heads up rugby doesn't mean you're winging everything. It means you play with a structure but are aware when opportunities arise and can capitalise on them with improvisation.

It seems at times that England are very much "this is how we play, DON'T try anything"

 

[Reiser99]

The way I see it, heads up rugby doesn't mean you're winging everything. It means you play with a structure but are aware when opportunities arise and can capitalise on them with improvisation.

It seems at times that England are very much "this is how we play, DON'T try anything"

Yeah for me heads up rugby means looking at the opposition and exploiting them. You do that by manipulating the defence. England do neither.

 

[BrokenWing]

This goes for the management team too. I don't CARE who England start at 10 within reason. What I do have an issue with is the management by numbers, not hooking players if they're having a stinker because that's not what was planned before the game.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The way I see it, heads up rugby doesn't mean you're winging everything. It means you play with a structure but are aware when opportunities arise and can capitalise on them with improvisation.

It seems at times that England are very much "this is how we play, DON'T try anything"

Beautifully put.

It's what the ABs used to be so good at. Everyone remembers the rapier strikes, few remember that they kicked as much, if not more, than everyone else.

 

[HamJan]

Beautifully put.

It's what the ABs used to be so good at. Everyone remembers the rapier strikes, few remember that they kicked as much, if not more, than everyone else.

A bit like France now.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Now that al the rugby has been played, this is what I'd like to see as an initial 45-man training squad. I'm probably forgetting some players, but I've excluded Cowan-Dickie and Willis as I'm assuming that neither will be available, LCD through injury and Willis through being in France.

LP: Genge, McIntyre, Obano, Rapava-Ruskin
HK: Dan, George, McGuigan, Walker
TP: Cole, Heyes, Sinckler, Stuart
LK: Chessum, Isiekwe, Itoje, Launchbury, Martin, Ribbans
FL: Curry, Earl, Hill, Lawes, Ludlam, Pearson
N8: Dombrandt, Mercer
SH: Mitchell, van Poortvliet, Warr, Youngs
FH: Farrell, Ford, Smith
IC: Kelly, Tuilagi
OC: Lawrence, Slade
WG: Malins, Murley, Roebuck, Watson
FB: Arundell, Steward
UB: Daly, Marchant

Players listed in alphabetical order, not first choice to last.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm pretty sure Willis is available until the end of the RWC (I think his current contract is counted as a domestic one, so until the end of the RWC he's still available, like how Ribbans/LCD are still available),
Would love to see Willis Jr involved but can't think who would miss out for him (well - I'd drop Dombrandt for him, if I'm being honest, but that won't happen - maybe Earl? Willis covers 6/8, Earl covers 7/8, Earl not really used much under Borthwick, and between Curry/Willis/Ludlam and likely Pearson 7 is pretty well stacked)

Loosehead is an interesting one - we've actually got quite a few players we could pick now, but only really two that have any experience and one of those is not good enough/possibly injured (Mako - not sure what forced him out of the final)
From the ones you've listed you could also include West and Rodd in the mixer (though I think it's too soon for Rodd, atm - his scrummaging isn't consistent enough yet, some games he's brilliant and some he gets done in by the experienced old heads)

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'm pretty sure Willis is available until the end of the RWC (I think his current contract is counted as a domestic one, so until the end of the RWC he's still available, like how Ribbans/LCD are still available),
Would love to see Willis Jr involved but can't think who would miss out for him (well - I'd drop Dombrandt for him, if I'm being honest, but that won't happen - maybe Earl? Willis covers 6/8, Earl covers 7/8, Earl not really used much under Borthwick, and between Curry/Willis/Ludlam and likely Pearson 7 is pretty well stacked)

Loosehead is an interesting one - we've actually got quite a few players we could pick now, but only really two that have any experience and one of those is not good enough/possibly injured (Mako - not sure what forced him out of the final)
From the ones you've listed you could also include West and Rodd in the mixer (though I think it's too soon for Rodd, atm - his scrummaging isn't consistent enough yet, some games he's brilliant and some he gets done in by the experienced old heads)

Agreed on all fronts really. J. Willis being available does shake things up quite a bit. Hard to drop any of the flankers I named but think it would probably have to be Hill making way IMO. I know he isn't particularly rated on this forum but I do like Earl quite a lot. Don't really think he's been given a proper opportunity at international level yet in all honesty. Has he actually started a game?

Another option would be having Dombrandt make way for J. Willis and trusting the abilities of Ludlam, Curry, Earl, etc. to cover 8. I'd honestly rather any of them start at 8 than Dombrandt should Mercer go down. That won't happen though, so ultimately I think I'd have Hill make way.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

We're going to name a 55 man training squad, apparently,
Wonder if that will be everyone in one go or have it amended twice as according to the Telegraph the playoff players can't join up initially due to mandatory stand-down:

England's preparations begin at Pennyhill Park on June 12 but they will not be able to integrate players from the Premiership semi-finalists or those employed by French clubs, such as Zach Mercer and the Willis brothers, until later in the summer.
Having lost in the play-offs this weekend, those from Northampton Saints and Leicester Tigers will join the camp on June 19. Because of the mandatory five-week holiday, though, Saracens and Sale Sharks players will not be brought in until July 2.

 

[BPM]

Agreed on all fronts really. J. Willis being available does shake things up quite a bit. Hard to drop any of the flankers I named but think it would probably have to be Hill making way IMO. I know he isn't particularly rated on this forum but I do like Earl quite a lot. Don't really think he's been given a proper opportunity at international level yet in all honesty. Has he actually started a game?

Another option would be having Dombrandt make way for J. Willis and trusting the abilities of Ludlam, Curry, Earl, etc. to cover 8. I'd honestly rather any of them start at 8 than Dombrandt should Mercer go down. That won't happen though, so ultimately I think I'd have Hill make way.

As much as I hope Mercer will step-up and replicate his club form, I think it would be a mistake to assume he will/do so instantly. He's going to have less time with the training squad and very little opportunity in competitive games to acclimatise and stake his claim.

I'm a lot less downbeat on Dombrandt than most seem to be. I fully accept he hasn't brought his Quins form to test rugby, but I don't agree he's been as poor as others are suggesting. In his defence, I also don't think he's had the freedom to play his usual game. As of right now, he's the man in possession and I think it's fanciful to think Borthwick will go from backing him to dropping him in one go.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'm a lot less downbeat on Dombrandt than most seem to be. I fully accept he hasn't brought his Quins form to test rugby, but I don't agree he's been as poor as others are suggesting. In his defence, I also don't think he's had the freedom to play his usual game. As of right now, he's the man in possession and I think it's fanciful to think Borthwick will go from backing him to dropping him in one go.

Yeah you're right, dropping Dombrandt entirely would be extreme, I went too far there.

Additions to my previous squad now knowing that it's 55-man.
LP: West
HK: Dunn
LK: Hill
FL: J.Willis
N8: T.Willis
SH: Quirke
FH: Smith (Fin)
IC: Atkinson (Seb)
WG: Hassell-Collins
FB: Loader

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Porter will get called up if it's a 55 man squad

 

[BPM]

I could also see a few curveballs in there too. Ackermann and Rogerson have apparently been contacted for example.

Less of a curve ball, but Harry Randall hasn't been mentioned and he looked back to form at the end of last season.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

No thank you to Ackermann.
Rogerson I like and it would be hard to say he didn't deserve a call up, but there's just many options ahead of him IMO.
Randall good shout, forgot him. Would have him ahead of Quirke on current form.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Really hope Ackermann doesn't get called up,
Backrow is such a position of potential depth we don't need to be calling up average mercenaries

You're invisible to England selectors if you're at Gloucester....unless you're not English

Like when they called up/played Heinz instead of Spencer in 2019

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

As much as I hope Mercer will step-up and replicate his club form, I think it would be a mistake to assume he will/do so instantly. He's going to have less time with the training squad and very little opportunity in competitive games to acclimatise and stake his claim.

I'm a lot less downbeat on Dombrandt than most seem to be. I fully accept he hasn't brought his Quins form to test rugby, but I don't agree he's been as poor as others are suggesting. In his defence, I also don't think he's had the freedom to play his usual game. As of right now, he's the man in possession and I think it's fanciful to think Borthwick will go from backing him to dropping him in one go.

Firstly, good to see you back posting @BPM.

Space for Dombrandt in a wider squad? Probably.

Should he start? No. He's done some good stuff at the breakdown etc but looks caught between conditioning stools - he looked neither powerful enough nor fit enough and there have been more handling errors than we might have expected. His running lines haven't come off either - a couple of nearly dids but the international game is a higher standard and they didn't. Also it looks like Smith will be bench at best so he can't really play the telepathic card.

No guarantees on anyone until they've been tested, but Mercer's emphatically put to bed the questions about his physicality and deserves a shot.

Dombrandt's not exactly an experienced international but his saving grace might be that both Mercer and T Willis are total newbies and you don't want too many of those in a RWC squad, especially not covering the same position.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Now that al the rugby has been played, this is what I'd like to see as an initial 45-man training squad. I'm probably forgetting some players, but I've excluded Cowan-Dickie and Willis as I'm assuming that neither will be available, LCD through injury and Willis through being in France.

LP: Genge, McIntyre, Obano, Rapava-Ruskin
HK: Dan, George, McGuigan, Walker
TP: Cole, Heyes, Sinckler, Stuart
LK: Chessum, Isiekwe, Itoje, Launchbury, Martin, Ribbans
FL: Curry, Earl, Hill, Lawes, Ludlam, Pearson
N8: Dombrandt, Mercer
SH: Mitchell, van Poortvliet, Warr, Youngs
FH: Farrell, Ford, Smith
IC: Kelly, Tuilagi
OC: Lawrence, Slade
WG: Malins, Murley, Roebuck, Watson
FB: Arundell, Steward
UB: Daly, Marchant

Players listed in alphabetical order, not first choice to last.

Has Marler actually retired?

Why would Borthwick pick Walker when he so clearly didn't trust him in the 6N? Just wasting the player's time.

Don't see a great deal of point in Cole being involved now even if his club form is good. He looked off the pace in the 6N. Is his scrummaging really that much better than the others?

Underhill surely if fit?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I feel it might be too late for mercer. If Borthwick does back mercer, does he take Uni rig in the squad as a back up (just in case mercer doesn't make the step up) or risk having no proper 8 cover (using Ludlum or curry as 8 cover). Dombrant doesn't cover 6 or 7 so he is a luxury and I can't think of many squad's previously taking two 8s (who don't cover other positions).

Or does he stick to his guns on Dombrant and risk his average form at international level and potentially lose out on a top drawer mercer talent.

They being said Dombrant did improve as the games went on so there is a chance he carries on improving and reaches a peak for the WC.

Another of many problems Borthwick had to answer.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I feel it might be too late for mercer. If Borthwick does back mercer, does he take Uni rig in the squad as a back up (just in case mercer doesn't make the step up) or risk having no proper 8 cover (using Ludlum or curry as 8 cover). Dombrant doesn't cover 6 or 7 so he is a luxury and I can't think of many squad's previously taking two 8s (who don't cover other positions).

Or does he stick to his guns on Dombrant and risk his average form at international level and potentially lose out on a top drawer mercer talent.

They being said Dombrant did improve as the games went on so there is a chance he carries on improving and reaches a peak for the WC.

Another of many problems Borthwick had to answer.

Favourable draw or not we're not going to win it or get close, so to some extent Borthwick's got a free pass - provided there are no more France like calamities. If he really thinks that someone's the future then he may be largely be forgiven for getting that experience into them. May.