England 2022/23

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I really hope we are past the Farrell at 12 debate. Farrell has proven time and time again he isn't a good 12, he may be an average 12 but he's been a great 10. It would be madness not to play Farrell at 10.

Looking at the make up of the 33 I'd guess he'd take three FHs anyhow although I really don't think Ford offers enough to warrant a call up although maybe the same could be said of Smiths form recently.

Sod it, sack them both off and take in form Finn Smith!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I assume you mean you can see Ford as first or second choice?

Double negative

I see Smith going as 3rd choice and I suspect he may only feature against Chile unless Ford or Farrell are unavailable. I could easily see him being left out though.



Is Furbank even in Borthwick's thoughts? I don't think he was in the mix for the 6N was he?

Yeah was a bit of a reach, just trying to think of someone who could be 10 cover in a midweek - maybe he'll take Wigglesworth as 3rd choice 9/10
Completely forgot Malins has played 10 before

I agree, though - Ford/Farrell nailed on, Smith depends on a couple of factors:

1. Is there anyone else who can cover 10 that's in his plans? Smith solely covers 10 so will he want that with limited squad numbers?
2. Is he planning a Ford/Farrell 10/12? If he is then it's a risk starting either vs Chile so makes Smith more likely

Of course Smith could play a blinder in the warmups and go as our starting 10....but under Borthwick I can't see it. If Evans being in camp couldn't get us to use him properly then I can't see Wigglesworth improving on that

 

[Which Tyler]

I'm sorry.
I was joking.
I will think on what I have done, and how I can atone.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'm sorry.
I was joking.
I will think on what I have done, and how I can atone.

 

[Jimbo]

I really hope we are past the Farrell at 12 debate. Farrell has proven time and time again he isn't a good 12, he may be an average 12 but he's been a great 10. It would be madness not to play Farrell at 10.

Looking at the make up of the 33 I'd guess he'd take three FHs anyhow although I really don't think Ford offers enough to warrant a call up although maybe the same could be said of Smiths form recently.

Sod it, sack them both off and take in form Finn Smith!

Couldn't agree more in taking Farrell as the primary 10 come World Cup time, he should have been dropped in the past but this season has played as well as I can recall, Ford looked pretty average for me in the final but has only recently come back from long term injury and spent time in England camp so can be excused for that, should however be in the mix whilst managing Farrel's game time, Smith I don't think can really work in the current setup but hopefully as the next WC cycle develops a slightly more attack minded and less kick centric game plan can be thought up.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I have been anti Farrell for quite a while and, whilst I'm still anti him at 12, his form at 10 this season has probably been up there with the best it has ever been. I just hope he brings his Saracens form to England, because his recent England form hasn't been at the level of his club form.

 

[BPM]

I really hope we are past the Farrell at 12 debate. Farrell has proven time and time again he isn't a good 12, he may be an average 12 but he's been a great 10. It would be madness not to play Farrell at 10.

Looking at the make up of the 33 I'd guess he'd take three FHs anyhow although I really don't think Ford offers enough to warrant a call up although maybe the same could be said of Smiths form recently.

Sod it, sack them both off and take in form Finn Smith!

I'm absolutely not advocating for the Ford/Farrell 'axis' (I hate that term). I was really just making the case for why Borthwick may want three 10s in the squad and I think Farrell covering 10 and 12 is probably a pretty major factor in that decision.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I'm absolutely not advocating for the Ford/Farrell 'axis' (I hate that term). I was really just making the case for why Borthwick may want three 10s in the squad and I think Farrell covering 10 and 12 is probably a pretty major factor in that decision.

I can actually see him taking 4 centres this time. In a 33 man squad I could easily see Lawrence, Manu and Slade as dead certs. Then I think we will see a bolter at 12 in either Kelly or Seb Atkinson. Just get the impression Borthwick will want a young 12 option. May be off with that but that's my guess.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I reckon Kelly is nailed on, it's only injury that kept him out of the 6N and he was Borthwick's starting 12 at Tigers

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

FWIW I think right now Borthwick goes:
LP (3): Genge, Vunipola, Rodd
HK (3): George, McGuigan, Walker
TP (3): Sinckler, Cole, Stuart
LK (3): Itoje, Chessum, Ribbans
LK/FL (1): Lawes
FL (3): Curry, Ludlam, Willis
N8 (2): Mercer, Dombrandt
SH (3): Van Poortvliet, Mitchell, Youngs
FH (3): Farrell, Ford, Smith
IC (2): Tuilagi, Kelly
OC (2): Slade, Lawrence
WG (3): Watson, Malins, Arundell
FB (1): Steward
UB (1): Daly

I'd be really surprised if it deviates much from that.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I reckon Obano goes over Rodd,
Also think Martin is more likely to go than not, but from that I struggle to see who gets dropped - Ribbons? Lawes? Maybe even Chessum if he's not match fit after 6 months out (if he's even back by then) - for me he goes over Ribbans (though only if Chessum is fit, as we need a 5)

But yeah - that feels very realistic

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I reckon Obano goes over Rodd,
Also think Martin is more likely to go than not, but from that I struggle to see who gets dropped - Ribbons? Lawes? Maybe even Chessum if he's not match fit after 6 months out (if he's even back by then)

But yeah - that feels very realistic

If it was me selecting then I'd 100% go Obano over Rodd but EJ was fond of Rodd and I think Borthwick seems to be too. Wouldn't rule Obano out by any means but ATM I reckon Rodd edges it.

Good shout on Martin, completely forgot him somehow. Given that Borthwick seems to trust Ludlam to cover 8, perhaps one of Dombrandt or Mercer drops out and Lawes and Martin both go as LK/FL?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Isn't Ribbans off to Toulon doesn't that rule him out?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If it was me selecting then I'd 100% go Obano over Rodd but EJ was fond of Rodd and I think Borthwick seems to be too. Wouldn't rule Obano out by any means but ATM I reckon Rodd edges it.

True enough, though I think Obano has been in a few training squads when he's (rarely) been fit

We already know Genge is the starter and we already know what Mako provides (very little, but enough that the England selectors love him) so I'd give Rodd and Obano both a start in the "Summer Nations Series" or whatever it's called

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Isn't Ribbans off to Toulon doesn't that rule him out?

Don't think so. Would be available for the same reason Willis is and LCD was before having contract torn up/being injured.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Isn't Ribbans off to Toulon doesn't that rule him out?

According to Nowell the French clubs have offered players two types of contracts: available for RWC and not available for RWC - with the start date being pre-summer/post final (and the salary adjusted pro-rata), that's why he officially ruled himself out of contention - so depends which he has chosen - I've not heard anything about him not being available (though not heard anything the other way either tbf)

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

I actually think Walker might not go, and someone like Theo Dan might sneak in there

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Walker's a really odd one to me. It seems like Borthwick simultaneously has a lot of faith in him and absolutely no faith in him at the same time. Puts him on the bench for all 5 Six Nations games without giving a sniff to Dunn, or bringing someone else into camp, but then gives him hardly any minutes.

 

[BPM]

FWIW I think right now Borthwick goes:
LP (3): Genge, Vunipola, Rodd
HK (3): George, McGuigan, Walker
TP (3): Sinckler, Cole, Stuart
LK (3): Itoje, Chessum, Ribbans
LK/FL (1): Lawes
FL (3): Curry, Ludlam, Willis
N8 (2): Mercer, Dombrandt
SH (3): Van Poortvliet, Mitchell, Youngs
FH (3): Farrell, Ford, Smith
IC (2): Tuilagi, Kelly
OC (2): Slade, Lawrence
WG (3): Watson, Malins, Arundell
FB (1): Steward
UB (1): Daly

I'd be really surprised if it deviates much from that.

Yeah. That looks pretty close to what I'd expect.

The only ones I'd question are Chessum (injury as already discussed) and Daly. I don't recall him being injured and he wasn't involved in the 6N which is really our only indication on Borthwick's preferences so far.

I'd imagine the following will be in contention:

HK: Dolly (did a good job for Borthwick at Tigers) and is fit again

PR: Heyes (As above). I imagine Cole is likely to be the preferred option, but he looked over the hill in the 6N.

LK: Martin (already covered). Ewels I don't like it, but I could definitely see it happening if Chessum isn't fit.

FL: Underhill will be in with a shout

SH: I could see Quirke leapfrogging Mitchell

Back Three: I think Malins might be considered the utility back which might see another winger instead. OHC, Murley or maybe Cokanasiga?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I actually think Walker might not go, and someone like Theo Dan might sneak in there

Would be well up for that, he's been so good this season
Would already have a working relationship with itoje as well for the lineout calls