• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

"England has the quantity, but Wales has the quality". Discuss.

I think it boils down to psyche, England in all sports are fundamentally conservative and also seem mentally fragile when in a position to win. English teams in all sports rarely display a killer instinct and keeping the pressure on throughout. Ultimately it's like many English teams want to go out and not lose rather than win. The difference is when you look at our Olympians, they have a much better attitude. Team sports don't seem to be learning from them in England.
 
I think it boils down to psyche, England in all sports are fundamentally conservative and also seem mentally fragile when in a position to win. English teams in all sports rarely display a killer instinct and keeping the pressure on throughout. Ultimately it's like many English teams want to go out and not lose rather than win. The difference is when you look at our Olympians, they have a much better attitude. Team sports don't seem to be learning from them in England.
England white ball cricket, although we're led by an Irishman. Amazing we've got past the quarter finals really.
 
I think it boils down to psyche, England in all sports are fundamentally conservative and also seem mentally fragile when in a position to win. English teams in all sports rarely display a killer instinct and keeping the pressure on throughout. Ultimately it's like many English teams want to go out and not lose rather than win. The difference is when you look at our Olympians, they have a much better attitude. Team sports don't seem to be learning from them in England.
I think its mostly unfair to the football team, sure they underachieve for what fans want but its played to a high level by a vast array of countries. The fact they have so many top 8/16 finishes is actually pretty good in terms of consistency. Of course they are in a purple patch now with a top 4 and top 2.
 
I think its mostly unfair to the football team, sure they underachieve for what fans want but its played to a high level by a vast array of countries. The fact they have so many top 8/16 finishes is actually pretty good in terms of consistency. Of course they are in a purple patch now with a top 4 and top 2.
It's played to a high level in many countries and yet, they win. We have won world cups in many sports but I can't think of a sport where we have won it more than once. That's the point, we are consistently nearly there and statistically a team as consistently close as us should actually win far more often than we do. This is true in rugby, in football, in cricket you name it. If anything being consistently up there and not winning is worse than winning but then not having a hope in hell other times. Ultimately English sport as a whole needs to get the monkey off our back of basically being afraid to excel. It's cultural. The Lancaster years sum it up perfectly, 4 2nd places in a row in the 6N, pretty good performances across the board then fall to pieces when it really mattered.

Jones sorted it out when he first came in but now we have slipped back to that old mental fragility. When Jones first arrived it was never write England off as they will fight to the end, now it's we can't write any team off as we have repeatedly thrown away leads and are setting records for how much we implode.
 
You can't compare Wales to AB, they have almost twice the population. We have 250 odd clubs, 50,000 players all ages and gender against their 600 odd, 150000 players. By comparison to them we are not a rugby nation.
The reason I bought up Japan is it's size and population along with the fact most live near it's edges. They have over 1500 clubs, 120000 players, we are already seeing the growth of their national team and improved competitiveness. What they lack is enough tier 1 games. I can see them teaching top 5 inside the next 10-20 years.
Most Pacific Islanders play in NZ and Aus but also Japan. After the group stages of the 2019 World Cup, no pacific island teams were still in, yet 60 players from other nations could have qualified for Tonga, Samoa or Fiji. Those 3 countries have only 17000 senior male players at home, there's approximately 700 players in European clubs, 1/2 the Aussie team and a fair chunk of New Zealand and Japan have pacific Island influence. Their style, their ball skills and their power is known the world over. They are the true over achievers, when it comes to rugby.
 
It's played to a high level in many countries and yet, they win. We have won world cups in many sports but I can't think of a sport where we have won it more than once. That's the point, we are consistently nearly there and statistically a team as consistently close as us should actually win far more often than we do. This is true in rugby, in football, in cricket you name it. If anything being consistently up there and not winning is worse than winning but then not having a hope in hell other times. Ultimately English sport as a whole needs to get the monkey off our back of basically being afraid to excel. It's cultural. The Lancaster years sum it up perfectly, 4 2nd places in a row in the 6N, pretty good performances across the board then fall to pieces when it really mattered.

Jones sorted it out when he first came in but now we have slipped back to that old mental fragility. When Jones first arrived it was never write England off as they will fight to the end, now it's we can't write any team off as we have repeatedly thrown away leads and are setting records for how much we implode.
In terms of winning, you can't compare football to cricket and rugby. There are only about 8 test playing nations and the same number of tier 1 rugby teams whereas there are probably that many sides that were in with a shout of the Euros let alone the World Cup.

But your argument's good and still stands although I disagree with you on Jones. What I think we're seeing is just the Jones way of immediate shock jock impact which then fades. I'd say any frailties are as much to do with Jones seemingly controlling style as the English psyche.

Contrast that with Southgate who's been hugely impressive in building what seems to be a happy, united, empowered squad and there has to be correlation between that and the uptick in results. He clearly takes a deep interest in his players as people not just sporting commodities as a result of which they respond to him. And his public pronouncements are thoughtful and considered.

Irrespective of player base or amount of talent you'll never get the results without the right leadership - on and off field.
 
In terms of winning, you can't compare football to cricket and rugby. There are only about 8 test playing nations and the same number of tier 1 rugby teams whereas there are probably that many sides that were in with a shout of the Euros let alone the World Cup.

But your argument's good and still stands although I disagree with you on Jones. What I think we're seeing is just the Jones way of immediate shock jock impact which then fades. I'd say any frailties are as much to do with Jones seemingly controlling style as the English psyche.

Contrast that with Southgate who's been hugely impressive in building what seems to be a happy, united, empowered squad and there has to be correlation between that and the uptick in results. He clearly takes a deep interest in his players as people not just sporting commodities as a result of which they respond to him. And his public pronouncements are thoughtful and considered.

Irrespective of player base or amount of talent you'll never get the results without the right leadership - on and off field.
The exact reasons may be different but when it is the same across multiple unrelated sports of varying degrees of popularity and competitiveness, the only constant throughout is the nationality of the team. We have had many coaches both foreign and domestic with vastly varying styles and yet we seem to always plod along at roughly the same level, good but not top. To me that consistency across completely unrelated sports and over a prolonged period would strongly suggest the problem is cultural, that's the only thing that ties them all together.
 
But your argument's good and still stands although I disagree with you on Jones. What I think we're seeing is just the Jones way of immediate shock jock impact which then fades. I'd say any frailties are as much to do with Jones seemingly controlling style as the English psyche.
Sorry, are you saying that Eddie has been the problem for 35 years?
Us being there or thereabouts, but only once crossing the finishing line has been longer than Eddie's reign
 
What and England don't wake up muppet and you already have the biggest pool of players to pick from
24 posts and already calling someone a muppet? :eek:

I think you'll find Olyy is a wind up merchant …
 
24 posts and already calling someone a muppet? :eek:

I think you'll find Olyy is a wind up merchant …
Agree, literally none of Olly's 100,005,664 posts of of now are anything but wind ups
 
Hell, he defended* Eddie Jones once - blatant WUM



* I think he did, anyway, probably my mistake though...
 

Latest posts

Top