England Six Nations squad 2022

[Vieux Talonneur]

Ntamack less so but lets try to remember Dupont is a Wilko/Carter type once in a generation type player. Its no surprise he's given the nudge so early in his career we shouldn't be expect that kind of thing from our guys.

How very dare you try to be fair and rational?

The half back age thing was brought home to me by the Times earlier. But it's not about age per se, it's about clarity of thought, identifying and investing in talent and succession planning.

As far as the half backs are concerned it was more around how settled the French are compared to ours when thinking about the RWC. Talent is an accident of birth, all the rest is controllable.

 

[Which Tyler]

What should have happened after the WC (if Jones had a brain) was to have Ford as it's first choice FH and bring Smith on from the bench over the matches and let them fight it out for the FH spot. Gradually phasing in new players and getting experience (like most international teams).

Same with all the other positions, it's not the premierships fault, there players like Mitchel at saints who could have been phased in after the WC etc.

This is true - though it is worth noting that Eddie did look at both Smith and Mitchell (and dozens of other players) in camp before deciding that they weren't ready for even a bench spot at international level; so it's not like he wasn't interested, and wasn't looking. He just didn't see anything he liked.
When was Smith first brought into an England camp with Eddie?

But the players being phased in need to have proven their international potential over more than 5 minutes so that it's a clear succession plan not just selecting someone who's been on a hot streak. All players are different, but maybe a couple of seasons as their club's first choice wouldn't be a bad rule of thumb.

Yep, there's a reason I coined the term "Second Season Syndrome" plenty of bright young things hit professional rugby and make a big splash.
Then opposition coaches get a chance to look at their videos, and come up with strategies to negate them; and the weekly grind takes a toll on their bodies; and are suddenly less effective in their second season. Some manage to evade that; some recover quickly, some recover more slowy, some never realy recover and disappear from sight - and there's always a new bright young thing to take the headlines.

Personally, I've always said that if I were an international coach, I'd never cap anyone in the first 18 months as a club regular - for precisely this.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

This is true - though it is worth noting that Eddie did look at both Smith and Mitchell (and dozens of other players) in camp before deciding that they weren't ready for even a bench spot at international level; so it's not like he wasn't interested, and wasn't looking. He just didn't see anything he liked.
When was Smith first brought into an England camp with Eddie?


Yep, there's a reason I coined the term "Second Season Syndrome" plenty of bright young things hit professional rugby and make a big splash.
Then opposition coaches get a chance to look at their videos, and come up with strategies to negate them; and the weekly grind takes a toll on their bodies; and are suddenly less effective in their second season. Some manage to evade that; some recover quickly, some recover more slowy, some never realy recover and disappear from sight - and there's always a new bright young thing to take the headlines.

Personally, I've always said that if I were an international coach, I'd never cap anyone in the first 18 months as a club regular - for precisely this.

Smith was in a lot of camps but he was in the form of his life but wasn't even given a bench spot. Then he's suddenly a starter out the blue (probably only due to Farrells injury).

The thing is Eddie might not like what he's sees by some stupid metric but he's wrong. He's wrong on Ewels, Isiekwe, Furbank (especially at 10), wrong about Youngs etc

What I don't get is there has literally been no proper phasing new players on after the WC and then all of a sudden a massive lump of them going against Jones' own logic. He managed to pre WC build and build but seemed to have gone well off boil, although he did fail majorly in certain positions and his love of Farrell etc.

 

[Which Tyler]

The thing is Eddie might not like what he's sees by some stupid metric but he's wrong. He's wrong on Ewels, Isiekwe, Furbank (especially at 10), wrong about Youngs etc

Always remember, that sort of statement always makes you far more wrong than the person you're talking about - unless you are a senior (or at least equal) expert in the same field.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The other thing that's irritated me is that Jones has seldom seemed to have said

"You're a good player but it's not happening right now. We're going to pick X for now, but you go away and fix A, B and C and you're right back in contention".

Farrell, Binny etc didn't become bad players overnight. They either needed to improve elements of their game or to refocus. What they didn't need were sinecures. With Jones you seem to be either in or out.

Binny seems to have rediscovered his club form and is only 29. Will be interesting to see whether the door has been slammed shut on him or if Jones will judge him on what he is doing not what he has done.

 

[Which Tyler]

The other thing that's irritated me is that Jones has seldom seemed to have said

"You're a good player but it's not happening right now. We're going to pick X for now, but you go away and fix A, B and C and you're right back in contention".

Farrell, Binny etc didn't become bad players overnight. They either needed to improve elements of their game or to refocus. What they didn't need were sinecures. With Jones you seem to be either in or out.

Binny seems to have rediscovered his club form and is only 29. Will be interesting to see whether the door has been slammed shut on him or if Jones will judge him on what he is doing not what he has done.

That looks like pure speculation to me.
It also looks like exactly what has happened with Ford, and may well have happened with the Vunipolae. It also looks like exactly what happens with the wider squad players who aren't regulars.

Now if you mean that he hasn't made a public pronouncement of that, you'd have a point.
And quite right that he wouldn't make such a thing public - we'd all rightly be demanding his head before he'd finished saying it.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Always remember, that sort of statement always makes you far more wrong than the person you're talking about - unless you are a senior (or at least equal) expert in the same field.

That's 100% wrong I'm afraid. Just because Eddie does or doesn't do something it doesn't make it gospel. I'm no expert and we as fans don't have the data he has but….

We were right about Ewels, Jones was wrong
We were right about Iseikwe, Jones was wrong
We were right about Furbank, Jones was wrong (remember Furbank starting at 1 ahead of smith)
We were and still are right about Youngs and Jones was abs still is wrong.
We were right about the sarries out of form players, we were right about Makos scrummaging,

We were right about a lot of things, it doesn't matter that we said them rather than Jones or a Clive Woodward or anyone.

The truth is still the truth spoken by any person.

 

[Which Tyler]

That's 100% wrong I'm afraid. Just because Eddie does or doesn't do something it doesn't make it gospel. I'm no expert and we as fans don't have the data he has but….

Nope, it's self-entitled, arrogant, fed-up and refusing to give any credence to an acknowledged expert in the field.

Apply the same logic to any other walk of lie you like - and surely after the last 2 yeas, we can acknowledge that Chris Witty knows a tad more about immunology than all those armchair observers.
Any professional rugby coach knows a ****-tonne more than you or I could ever hope to about rugby.
Unless you have a long and detailed, personal and professional relationship with those players, then Eddie Jones a ****-tonne more about those individuals than you do.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion, and welcome to disagree with Eddie - but to claim that you are 100% right, and he is 100% wrong, makes you an idiot - just as much as anyone saying that Chris Witty is wrong, and that individual is right.


Oh, and I've never claimed that Eddie's word is gospel, or even close to it - just that it's a hell of a lot more informed than yours or mine

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Nope, it's self-entitled, arrogant, fed-up and refusing to give any credence to an acknowledged expert in the field.

Apply the same logic to any other walk of lie you like - and surely after the last 2 yeas, we can acknowledge that Chris Witty knows a tad more about immunology than all those armchair observers.
Any professional rugby coach knows a ****-tonne more than you or I could ever hope to about rugby.
Unless you have a long and detailed, personal and professional relationship with those players, then Eddie Jones a ****-tonne more about those individuals than you do.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion, and welcome to disagree with Eddie - but to claim that you are 100% right, and he is 100% wrong, makes you an idiot - just as much as anyone saying that Chris Witty is wrong, and that individual is right.


Oh, and I've never claimed that Eddie's word is gospel, or even close to it - just that it's a hell of a lot more informed than yours or mine

Lol

I'll apply the same logic then, In my work I often disagree with engineers who are experts and know all the facts and have all the data. Often they cite the very reasons you do, but alas i often find simplistic, cheaper, better ways of doing things.

For any expert or professional there will be another one that will disagree. Just because a fan says something it doesn't make it wrong.

I find your black and white view on things quite entertaining. We as fans must be wrong because Eddie is the coach. A coach who's not doing that well really is he and showing no signs of improvement. He's also contradicting his previous tactics (and successes), so it's Eddie vs Eddie just as much as Eddie vs us un-knowledgable fans who never get anything right.

Apart from Furbank, Youngs, Ewels etc etc

 

[BPM]

In the nicest possible way, I hope you don't behave like you do here in your professional life. You have very strong opinions - mostly that you are right and anyone saying otherwise is wrong. If anything, you might be the most 'black and white' person here. An angry version of 'Eddie is wrong, I'm right' is pretty much the theme of almost all of your posts.

I actually agree with a fair bit of what you say, but I also accept @Which Tyler's view that Eddie Jones most probably knows a fair bit more than me about rugby.

I don't like a lot of Eddie's selections and I often disagree with his logic, but when he spends hours of time with the players and I don't I have to concede that his POV is far more informed than mine.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Interesting article on Coka. Would be great to see him back firing.

Joe Cokanasiga: ‘Staying angry for a long time doesn’t help anything’ | Robert Kitson

The Bath wing Joe Cokanasiga has many reasons to be upset but after family problems, Covid and injury, he is dreaming of playing for England again, he tells Robert Kitson

www.theguardian.com

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Interesting article on Coka. Would be great to see him back firing.

Joe Cokanasiga: ‘Staying angry for a long time doesn’t help anything’ | Robert Kitson

The Bath wing Joe Cokanasiga has many reasons to be upset but after family problems, Covid and injury, he is dreaming of playing for England again, he tells Robert Kitson

www.theguardian.com

Regardless of the rugby, I hope his family get a break. They seem to have been having a particularly tough time.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

In the nicest possible way, I hope you don't behave like you do here in your professional life. You have very strong opinions - mostly that you are right and anyone saying otherwise is wrong. If anything, you might be the most 'black and white' person here. An angry version of 'Eddie is wrong, I'm right' is pretty much the theme of almost all of your posts.

I actually agree with a fair bit of what you say, but I also accept @Which Tyler's view that Eddie Jones most probably knows a fair bit more than me about rugby.

I don't like a lot of Eddie's selections and I often disagree with his logic, but when he spends hours of time with the players and I don't I have to concede that his POV is far more informed than mine.

I have to be very professional at work and most things are in the Grey there, maybe that's why I'm like this on here as a relief from it all

I've no doubt Eddie had more data and more experience but he's obviously coming to the wrong conclusions on a number of fronts which is strange considering what he built pre World Cup.

Also don't think I'd moan as much if the saints were doing better. I now know why the welsh on here are so touchy and argumentative when their clubs are rubbish and their international team fails to deliver (meant slightly tongue in cheek).

And @Which Tyler is sorry for arguing. I know we both want England to do well and we might have different views on skinning the cat but sorry.

 

[higgik]

In the nicest possible way, I hope you don't behave like you do here in your professional life. You have very strong opinions - mostly that you are right and anyone saying otherwise is wrong. If anything, you might be the most 'black and white' person here. An angry version of 'Eddie is wrong, I'm right' is pretty much the theme of almost all of your posts.

I actually agree with a fair bit of what you say, but I also accept @Which Tyler's view that Eddie Jones most probably knows a fair bit more than me about rugby.

I don't like a lot of Eddie's selections and I often disagree with his logic, but when he spends hours of time with the players and I don't I have to concede that his POV is far more informed than mine.

The only thing I have against EJ, is the sense he has this fantastic game plan in his head and is still trying to find the right players for his vision. After 3 years, he should have realised that those players are not around and perhaps his game plan needed to be adapted to the type of players available.

 

[BPM]

Don't get me wrong, I 100% share the frustration with Eddie and I don't like a lot of what he does/is doing.

I was simply backing up @Which Tyler's POV that Eddie's thousands of hours of coaching in professional rugby probably makes him better qualified to make decisions than we are.

For the most part, this forum is made of people who are genuinely knowledgeable and enthusiastic when it comes to rugby, so I think our collective viewpoint is better and more informed than most. However, we're still on the outside looking in so we're just not judging from the same perspective.

 

[MarkyH]

Nope, it's self-entitled, arrogant, fed-up and refusing to give any credence to an acknowledged expert in the field.

Apply the same logic to any other walk of lie you like - and surely after the last 2 yeas, we can acknowledge that Chris Witty knows a tad more about immunology than all those armchair observers.
Any professional rugby coach knows a ****-tonne more than you or I could ever hope to about rugby.
Unless you have a long and detailed, personal and professional relationship with those players, then Eddie Jones a ****-tonne more about those individuals than you do.

You are, of course, welcome to your opinion, and welcome to disagree with Eddie - but to claim that you are 100% right, and he is 100% wrong, makes you an idiot - just as much as anyone saying that Chris Witty is wrong, and that individual is right.


Oh, and I've never claimed that Eddie's word is gospel, or even close to it - just that it's a hell of a lot more informed than yours or mine

Totally understand this point but the analogy and using Chris Witty is wrong. Science is fact, it can be proven using research data and real results. There's people who disagree with Chris Witty, but he's an expert and science is his evidence. Science is true. And people (As we sadly see) can choose to ignore science.

Picking Rugby players for an XV will always be an opinion. Either that of me, you or Eddie Jones. Yes he's an expert of Rugby and has coached fantastically at the highest level. But we are fans of the sport, we are all 'scouts' of the next best rugby player. We see how they play week in and week out at our clubs and our opinion can be shouted more arrogantly as a fan of the sport. We can believe we're right, especially when England are losing and the current coach has a total jumbled logic to his selections - now is that arrogant, or wrong, or is it popular opinion amongst us fans?

Rugby isn't science. It's just opinions. It's just some opinions are worth more than others. And if you're Eddie Jones, then his oppionion is the only one that matters. He is more of an expert than any of us. But we can say he's wrong

 

[Which Tyler]

As that's a rather nit-picking response, I feel a nit-pick in return.

Science is rarely "FACT!" especially medical science.
Outisde of Maths, and some aspects of physics, science is "This is the closest to FACT! that we can currently get - chances are, this will have changed within 5 years, be obsolete in 10 years and laughably quaint in 20 years" (Time frames will vary for scientific discipline, but pretty accurate for medical.

Point taken though.

As for DSLD - I wasn't arguing, I was forwarding an opinion (probably badly); that where anyone presents an opinion as an absolute, is absolutely wrong.
Oh, and that I personally am sick of the hyperbole that currently infests English rugby sites like this (and often the Bath ones as well before we started winning a few matches and promoted Hooper to the job he really should have been doing in the first place).

 

[MarkyH]

Apologies, it probably did come across as rather nit-picking.

I just don't see why we need to compare the selection of our favourite men on a rugby pitch to an expert in immunology who's job it is to use the best available science right now to reduce the impact of a deadly pandemic.

Let the man be arrogant about sport. It's all part of the fun!

 

[Scotty]

Don't get me wrong, I 100% share the frustration with Eddie and I don't like a lot of what he does/is doing.

I was simply backing up @Which Tyler's POV that Eddie's thousands of hours of coaching in professional rugby probably makes him better qualified to make decisions than we are.

For the most part, this forum is made of people who are genuinely knowledgeable and enthusiastic when it comes to rugby, so I think our collective viewpoint is better and more informed than most. However, we're still on the outside looking in so we're just not judging from the same perspective.

I think 1 point to that is Dombrandt, we all wanted Billy out and him in thinking he would be great, EJ looked at him and sent him back to Quins a few times with work ons(im guessing) and finally gave him a shot. He's been good but not great for England. We see talent and how it could work but he sees it in training and close up so much better positioned to make these calls.

We knew dombrandt was the future but EJ knew if he was ready or not.

I still knowing this would have put him on the bench earlier to get some gametime but still

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I've just found it most baffling how it seems to be Eddie goes from no interest to chucking into the team as a starter and then dumping again. He seems to be all or nothing. I can't think of any players who started off as regular benchers who then became starters in their own right with a clear line of progression in the teams he creates.