England's back line

[TRF_Olyy]

Well what I've seen of Devoto is pretty good but that was against a weakened Argentina.

.....?
Do you mean Eastmond?

 

[Geordie]

Barritt was a 10 for the Sharks before he came to the UK.

It would appear he HAS the skills just Saracens have coached it out of him.

I agree about Twevletrees. He's too inconsistant and as mentioned above...he needs too many games to get up to speed.

Burrell / Tuilagi midfield with one of Burns / Cipriani / Ford pulling the strings from 10.

Also...whoever plays on the wing...MUST be given licence to roam and follow the ball. Burrell scored in the 6n by running great lines...Ashton's game is all about that yet all we've seen from is that he's stapled to the sideline. Thats not his game.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You're right that would scare any team, I know i'd be scared if two clones were playing on the wings

And I would've got away with it if it wasn't for you pesky meddling kid! Fixed to put Yarde in there.

.....?
Do you mean Eastmond?

Nope I meant Devoto but I got the wrong game, it was one of the more recent internationals.

 

[goodNumber10]

I think you've got Devoto mixed up with Slade - who played against the Barbarians.

Devoto is uncapped and has only played England U20's (as a fullback iirc)

****Edit: just checked, Devoto played in the Barbarians game - came on for Slade as Blood replacement.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Devoto came on at FH and played well - it's his favored position AFAIK.

 

[goodNumber10]

just found this on youtube:

Solid but uninspiring, i can live with that.

 

[Peat]

I like how GN10 assumes that Glaws won't be a decent team :lol:

I don't get how, if the most important thing is to take it to the line and distribute it, and to straighten the drift, and if Barritt is so notably better at it than Twelvetrees, we've become a stronger attacking team since dumping Barritt for Twelvetrees. The evidence doesn't stack there.

Everything else I might have to say I've said before, so I'll just use cliff note format for it again; Barritt's carrying record for England anaemic; dropping players because of one bad game in NZ following successful 6Ns is nuts; Farrell looks better with a playmaking 12 and is undroppable.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I like how GN10 assumes that Glaws won't be a decent team :lol:

I don't get how, if the most important thing is to take it to the line and distribute it, and to straighten the drift, and if Barritt is so notably better at it than Twelvetrees, we've become a stronger attacking team since dumping Barritt for Twelvetrees. The evidence doesn't stack there.

Everything else I might have to say I've said before, so I'll just use cliff note format for it again; Barritt's carrying record for England anaemic; dropping players because of one bad game in NZ following successful 6Ns is nuts; Farrell looks better with a playmaking 12 and is undroppable.

Show me any stats from a game where Twelvetrees has impressed vs Aus, SA or NZ?

He has yet to perform well in big game, even at club level.

 

[goodNumber10]

Have we though?

That's coincided with a few things: Care hitting form and pulling in back rows, a 15 who's a good attacker, Burrell made a big difference as well as he straightened the line and is a 13 who can release his outside backs. We've also adopted a more dynamic style of play up front and are getting better go forward ball. Additionally Mike Catt has had a good year or so to work with players especially Farrell.

It's not all down to one person, 36, it's down to a collection of elements clicking, but quite often they are inconsistent, go back and watch that 2nd test and look at how many bad options the england back line took.

 

[Peat]

Have we though?

Yes we have. Is this even a serious question? Your next paragraph seems to suggest agreement with the premise.

That's coincided with a few things: Care hitting form and pulling in back rows, a 15 who's a good attacker, Burrell made a big difference as well as he straightened the line and is a 13 who can release his outside backs. We've also adopted a more dynamic style of play up front and are getting better go forward ball. Additionally Mike Catt has had a good year or so to work with players especially Farrell.

It's not all down to one person, 36, it's down to a collection of elements clicking, but quite often they are inconsistent, go back and watch that 2nd test and look at how many bad options the england back line took.

Now, I never said it was down to one person did I? My point was it's rather odd for the whole team to take a step forwards in general while we take a step back in the attacking qualities of our 12. That doesn't add up. Nor does it add up for the role to be so important and Barritt so good at it that England have failed to recognise it and reinstate Barritt (while rushing back Twelvetrees from injury once and picking Twelvetrees after not training for a week at least once). Ok, maybe it does add up that the England coaching team would fail to notice such things, but it doesn't aid the logic that they'll see the light.

And I remember the amount of bad options they took in the second test... and against Italy when we needed an uber score... and against Scotland when we could have spared the need for the Italian uber score... and pretty much every England match in recent memory. I'm not raving about this backline. But it's been better this year than the year before; and, while they do make plenty of bad decisions in promising positions, at least they reach them promising positions to begin with. Twelvetrees break and suicide offload is a prime example of that really; barring the miracle match against a not very well NZ, the backline of Barritt's time simply didn't make many breaks like that.

I'm not out here to declare Twelvetrees is a wonder player who must be picked or anything like that. But what I am declaring is that a lot of people are overlooking what England have been doing and what they are looking for. I also think people are overlooking the shortcomings of bosh only rugby as shown by Gatland's Wales. And people are definitely whitewashing Twelvetrees' achievements in the shirt, such as the partnership with Farrell that ended the Six Nations on such a high note, or being one of our most effective attacking players vs New Zealand. It was Twelvetrees who released Brown for his try in the second test as well, very good example of the understanding him and Farrell have built up - both take it to the line well too.

Do I want Twelvetrees picked for the next tests? Not sure, the inconsistency thing is a real worry. Do I think people should be completely writing him out of the picture? I find that very silly indeed.

As for the elements clicking together... personally I am on the belief that a 12 who can do more than bend the gain line a little has been a huge aid to our forwards getting go forwards ball. And if Burrell is a 13 who releases his outside backs, then I am the Archbishop of Banterbury. Man and ball on the touch line time and time again? That's not what I'd call releasing... mindyou, Barritt was the same. Not what I'd expect for players being talked up as great at straightening up and distributing from the gain line really.

 

[goodNumber10]

Nor does it add up for the role to be so important and Barritt so good at it that England have failed to recognise it and reinstate Barritt (while rushing back Twelvetrees from injury once and picking Twelvetrees after not training for a week at least once). Ok, maybe it does add up that the England coaching team would fail to notice such things, but it doesn't aid the logic that they'll see the light.

Well it does, i'm saying this is the type of 12 they need now. Who knows maybe they'll read this and see what i'm saying

I'm not out here to declare Twelvetrees is a wonder player who must be picked or anything like that. But what I am declaring is that a lot of people are overlooking what England have been doing and what they are looking for. I also think people are overlooking the shortcomings of bosh only rugby as shown by Gatland's Wales. And people are definitely whitewashing Twelvetrees' achievements in the shirt, such as the partnership with Farrell that ended the Six Nations on such a high note, or being one of our most effective attacking players vs New Zealand. It was Twelvetrees who released Brown for his try in the second test as well, very good example of the understanding him and Farrell have built up - both take it to the line well too.

lets not forget it was 36 who threw took the wrong option, wasted an overlap and then wildly threw the ball to Brodie Rettalick and allowed the AB's to counter on the Ben smith Try.

As for the elements clicking together... personally I am on the belief that a 12 who can do more than bend the gain line a little has been a huge aid to our forwards getting go forwards ball. And if Burrell is a 13 who releases his outside backs, then I am the Archbishop of Banterbury. Man and ball on the touch line time and time again? That's not what I'd call releasing... mindyou, Barritt was the same. Not what I'd expect for players being talked up as great at straightening up and distributing from the gain line really.

watch him, Burrell, in the italian game.

Also Barritt is a 12, so not sure what the point of comparing them is one played 13, one 12..... Barritt plays 12 for Sarries and they frequently move the ball wider by way of his passing.

Look, as i said before i'm not saying Barritt should or will get picked, i said i see what he brings to the game and i have a feeling he will get back in the test team. i think what he does is what we need now, and i think he and Burrell can do that at 12, Eastmond could but i think the defensive thing worries me.

 

[Peat]

Well it does, i'm saying this is the type of 12 they need now. Who knows maybe they'll read this and see what i'm saying

So they had one, changed it, got better, now need to go back... at what point do you think they needed to go back?

lets not forget it was 36 who threw took the wrong option, wasted an overlap and then wildly threw the ball to Brodie Rettalick and allowed the AB's to counter on the Ben smith Try.

How on earth could I forget the one moment that everyone is basing their opinion of Twelvetrees on.

watch him, Burrell, in the italian game.

Also Barritt is a 12, so not sure what the point of comparing them is one played 13, one 12..... Barritt plays 12 for Sarries and they frequently move the ball wider by way of his passing.

I am comparing Barritt's games at 13 for England with Burrell's at 13 for England. Based on Burrell's games for England, I stick to my opinion of his utility to the outside backs. Granted, not saying this is definitely either's fault, because there be so many things wrong with England, but equally, if they both have the skillset, why don't they use it? I've lost count of the time I've seen them, at 13, approach a back, and pass before committing them to a winger with no space.

Look, as i said before i'm not saying Barritt should or will get picked, i said i see what he brings to the game and i have a feeling he will get back in the test team. i think what he does is what we need now, and i think he and Burrell can do that at 12, Eastmond could but i think the defensive thing worries me.

How are these not the same things? :lol:

I just think there's some pretty big logical holes in your argument. So, having said all that, I think it probably will end up being Barritt, bloody Murphy's law...

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/sep/12/semesa-rokoduguni-bath-winger-fiji-soldier

 

[TheSaffycen]

How on earth could I forget the one moment that everyone is basing their opinion of Twelvetrees on.

.

No they're not. Against Australia he managed to be steam rollered by Toomua. Did he do anything in the games against New Zealand ? Look he can perform well against Argentina and Scotland but how he seems to be 12 elect too me is just ridiculous. Now he had a great grubber kick against Wales but he hardly shows these great touches.

And too say that Burrell hasn't improved the England attack is just flat out ludircous. The whole team attacked better, but that was on the back of a changed mindset by the coaches, which you could see in most of the games where we actually tried to play in our own half and not just kick and absorb pressure. Maybe this change happened because he didn't have Barritt and knew Twelvetrees couldn't do it, and it worked in part. Personally I think that Twelvetrees should get a chance in the autumn, but if he doesn't perform against one of the big boys, why should he get more chances ? Barritt isn't spectacular compared to some but at least you can hang your hat on the guy to do his job.

 

[Peat]

Did he do anything in the games against New Zealand?

Game 1 vs NZ - 13 carries, 55m, 3 DB - here's the link again, I already posted it http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/173972.html - more metres than anyone but Big Bill, more DB than anyone but Brown

Game 2 vs NZ - 1 try assist, 6 carries, 33m, 1 line break, 3 DB

Do you think that's not something? What were you looking for if its not?

And too say that Burrell hasn't improved the England attack is just flat out ludircous.

What's even more ludicrous is saying I said that ^_^

No they're not.

Really?

The majority opinion post 6N was that Twelvetrees had earned the shirt for next window.

There is now a substantial set of opinion which seems to reckon he should be dispensed with; you saying you wouldn't take him to the World Cup, for example.

There's only been one game between that. That's a game in which he did quite a few things right. But after which there has been a real swing in opinion. And that was the big thing that happened that went wrong.

The most obvious conclusion is that the turnover has changed people's opinions drastically. The next most obvious conclusion would be that people never forgave him for the Toomua thing, and have been waiting for an excuse ever since.

That would be incredibly inconsistent though, as most people seem to want the guy who missed Nonu twice for two tries to be starting 12 instead. Still, it's massive inconsistency that got this whole thing started, so maybe I should have said two things... but there we go.



Incidentally, since I've been rewatching the 2nd test highlights a lot, where the hell was the cover defence for the try off of Twelvetrees' turnover? It happens sixty yards down the pitch, plenty of team to do something, but only Robshaw (I think) and Twelvetrees have thought to make the effort to cornerflag. Where's the wingers/Care/Burrell? Savea receives the ball from Cruden to beat Brown, he's got two support runners with him. We have one openside flanker. There's plenty of time for a winger to get back. Been told not to? Didn't think of it? I'd love to know what Farrell senior made of that moment. Guess one winger should be covering their wing for the kick. Someone else drops back to cover full-back for Brown? Still leaves a couple of pacy backs that could have made it there.

And when was the last time we saw someone make a big break and have two guys with him? You guys want to cuss out Twelvetrees? Watch the Tuilagi break again and ask why the fµck is he stood there three yards away from where Tuilagi started with his hands on his hips? I've heard some criticism of Brown for not running a closer line, but know what, in that situation, the only guy anywhere near is the last guy you should be fµcking criticising. There's thirteen players jogging up like nothing's happening. Now I've thought about it, I'm far more pashed with Twelvetrees for that than the offload. I'd rather our players went wrong trying to do things than do nothing. If England had two players in support of Tuilagi instead of one, that's a try. But we didn't because there's 13 fµckwits out for their Sunday sodomy. In Twelvetrees' defence though, that was his first half of rugby in a long long time, he must have been feeling pretty grim. I'm not sure that's a good enough defence, but, it's worth mentioning.

For what it's worth I think Brown did the right thing there as well - he was tightly enough marked that if he had the ball he'd get tackled as well. By running a wide line, he forced his marker to abandon any hope of tackling Tuilagi. Kept it 1 vs 1 instead of 2 vs 1. Tuilagi should have kicked and prayed.


Anyway, here endeth the rant. Twelvetrees does some decent stuff against some decent sides. He's not the messiah, but he's not a naughty boy. Or at least, he's no more naughty than the various useless buggers that populate England's back line. Pray for Devoto, my children, pray. He'll probably end up mildly fµcking useless as well though.

 

[Patchey]

^
This.

Just all of this. 'Pray for Devoto, my children, pray.' made me snort into my coffee.

 

[TheSaffycen]

.

Game 1 vs NZ - 13 carries, 55m, 3 DB - here's the link again, I already posted it http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/173972.html - more metres than anyone but Big Bill, more DB than anyone but Brown

Game 2 vs NZ - 1 try assist, 6 carries, 33m, 1 line break, 3 DB

Do you think that's not something? What were you looking for if its not?
The stats are impressive but they dont tell the whole story, if we just used stats then i could make an easy case for Goode/Ashton to be in the team. If you watch his performance he constantly runs straight into defenders and gets himself isolated. Now you could blame the support runners but if it consistently happens then surely Twelvetrees should realise this and stop it happening.


The majority opinion post 6N was that Twelvetrees had earned the shirt for next window.
The next window. In which he tried an offload that was not on at all, now if Barritt had done that people would have gone mental saying he isn't good enough at this level and that he isn't what we need. And it's all because Twelvetree's has been given this ***le as a 'ball playing 12' so people let him off for having a average defence, an average kicking game, and a decent passing game when he's on form.

There is now a substantial set of opinion which seems to reckon he should be dispensed with; you saying you wouldn't take him to the World Cup, for example.
I never wanted him to go to the world cup, though i might be in the minority. How can you take someone to the world cup who needs 4 or 5 games to get into form ?
There's only been one game between that. That's a game in which he did quite a few things right. But after which there has been a real swing in opinion. And that was the big thing that happened that went wrong.

The most obvious conclusion is that the turnover has changed people's opinions drastically. The next most obvious conclusion would be that people never forgave him for the Toomua thing, and have been waiting for an excuse ever since.
Excuses haven't been hard too come by.
That would be incredibly inconsistent though, as most people seem to want the guy who missed Nonu twice for two tries to be starting 12 instead. Still, it's massive inconsistency that got this whole thing started, so maybe I should have said two things... but there we go.



Incidentally, since I've been rewatching the 2nd test highlights a lot, where the hell was the cover defence for the try off of Twelvetrees' turnover? It happens sixty yards down the pitch, plenty of team to do something, but only Robshaw (I think) and Twelvetrees have thought to make the effort to cornerflag. Where's the wingers/Care/Burrell? Savea receives the ball from Cruden to beat Brown, he's got two support runners with him. We have one openside flanker. There's plenty of time for a winger to get back. Been told not to? Didn't think of it? I'd love to know what Farrell senior made of that moment. Guess one winger should be covering their wing for the kick. Someone else drops back to cover full-back for Brown? Still leaves a couple of pacy backs that could have made it there.

And when was the last time we saw someone make a big break and have two guys with him? You guys want to cuss out Twelvetrees? Watch the Tuilagi break again and ask why the fµck is he stood there three yards away from where Tuilagi started with his hands on his hips? I've heard some criticism of Brown for not running a closer line, but know what, in that situation, the only guy anywhere near is the last guy you should be fµcking criticising. There's thirteen players jogging up like nothing's happening. Now I've thought about it, I'm far more pashed with Twelvetrees for that than the offload. I'd rather our players went wrong trying to do things than do nothing.
So you are happy with guys throwing offloads that have no chance of getting to the support player and end up costing us a try ? But having players who aren't creative enough to try that stuff is a big problem because it could cost us the game ?
If England had two players in support of Tuilagi instead of one, that's a try. But we didn't because there's 13 fµckwits out for their Sunday sodomy. In Twelvetrees' defence though, that was his first half of rugby in a long long time, he must have been feeling pretty grim. I'm not sure that's a good enough defence, but, it's worth mentioning.

For what it's worth I think Brown did the right thing there as well - he was tightly enough marked that if he had the ball he'd get tackled as well. By running a wide line, he forced his marker to abandon any hope of tackling Tuilagi. Kept it 1 vs 1 instead of 2 vs 1. Tuilagi should have kicked and prayed.


Anyway, here endeth the rant. Twelvetrees does some decent stuff against some decent sides. He's not the messiah, but he's not a naughty boy. Or at least, he's no more naughty than the various useless buggers that populate England's back line. Pray for Devoto, my children, pray. He'll probably end up mildly fµcking useless as well though.

 

[Peat]

Ah, got it, you're just looking for any excuse to slag off Twelvetrees, including repeatedly misreading me with the latest one asking if I'm happy for him to throw wild offloads to no one when I say its a lesser sin than refusing to support a clean break. I'll leave you to it, this doesn't sound worth my time, because what's the point in me posting stuff if you won't even read what I'm saying?

 

[TheSaffycen]

Ah, got it, you're just looking for any excuse to slag off Twelvetrees, including repeatedly misreading me with the latest one saying I'm happy for him to throw wild offloads to no one when I say its a lesser sin than refusing to support a clean break. I'll leave you to it, this doesn't sound worth my time, because what's the point in me posting stuff if you won't even read what I'm saying?

Pretty clearly said 'guys'. I have a problem with any player who throws an offload to the opposition. And yes it is more a sin to give away 7 points than possibly costing your team 7 points, I would much rather be 0-0 than 0-7 and having to chase the game because any player tried an offload when it wasn't on. You see if any player cost us the game I would be annoyed, it just seems to be the case that Twelvetrees ****s up more than other players.
So I will ask you why should Twelvetree's be the starting 12 ?

 

[Crapspray]

To be fair to Twelvetrees, he is by no means the only player who's thrown an offload that wasn't on. The failure of England's offloading has mainly been the lack of proper support running.

I'm happy Twelvetrees (and the coaching team) want to at least try. Every now and then, and more often as the team gets used to the style of play, the offload goes to hand. The Burrell non-try against Wales was an example of what is possible if players get used to playing that way (shame Halfpenny is too brave for his own good on that one). Launchbury's charge-down and break in the second test before Yarde's try is another: Wood was there to keep the play alive.

Barritt would be a step backwards. It would limit the attacking potential of the side for a short-term gain of stability. It would entrench England at the current level, which, frankly, is no where near enough to win the world cup. As frustrating as Twelvetrees has been, England will get further, but perhaps not the whole way, with him at 12.

---

I have to admit that I was wrong when I earlier said "Brown was only good on the counter", or words to similar effect. A poor choice of words. What I meant to say, but didn't, was that he doesn't offer as great a threat in conventional attack as a Folau or Smith might. This isn't to say he isn't good in attack, but that he doesn't draw the defence's attention in the same way that they or Tuilagi do. Thus the problem of Tuilagi getting gang-tackled every time he touches the ball still occurs. I apologise, and immediately volunteer for fifty lashes as punishment to absolve my sin.