English rugby clubs ‘heading for disaster’ after mounting £300m in debts

[Saintjay]

You're absolutely right, I just think that obviously clubs are still paying NI on players' wages, and so still giving something to the treasury. It may not be the same value as the loan but it's still consistent year on year. If clubs go bust and more players either sign contracts abroad or move home or whatever then that tax base has shrunk - and the gov gets neither. If they can afford to give every mp a 2k pay rise and fail to tax wealth properly then they can afford to be lenient in the way they go about regaining the loans.

Take your point about them being private businesses but they're more than that, they are of public interest and provide community services. Maybe that is the answer though, local government could take shares in their clubs with oversight on how to help sustainability?

Northants local government is stuffed funding wise. My local authority is making redundancies and trying to find 11 million in savings. Ie cutting services to not much more than statutory duties.

A nobel idea but any local government involvement is probably dead in the water.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Northants local government is stuffed funding wise. My local authority is making redundancies and trying to find 11 million in savings. Ie cutting services to not much more than statutory duties.

A nobel idea but any local government involvement is probably dead in the water.

Yep. Frankly, I’d prefer them to start sorting out all the potholes.

More public money shouldn’t be anywhere these clubs. Especially as most local authorities are in dire financial straits, in many cases unable to provide basic services to those in need.

 

[Geordie]

Yep. Frankly, I'd prefer them to start sorting out all the potholes.

More public money shouldn't be anywhere these clubs. Especially as most local authorities are in dire financial straits, in many cases unable to provide basic services to those in need.

Yeah agree totally...more news coming out today about my local council North Tyneside about corruption galore, huge sums of money pocketed by "friends" which is now being investigated...makes me so angry.

 

[Flankers' paradise]

On reflection you are all absolutely right, i hadn't considered the current fallible positions of our councils.

 

[Rinkadink]

Another two week break. It's just absolutely awful for professionals, investors, marketers and of course fans. Yes, I know we have European rugby but what's gone before is the issue and this weekend is only reinforcing or emphasising issues.

The RFU should be ashamed.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The season’s a complete shambles.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Rugby fans "Clashes between internationals and club rugby is terrible, something must be done"
Also rugby fans "Lack of rugby when the internationals are on (if we ignore the rugby that was being played) is terrible, something must be done"

 

[Flankers' paradise]

I heard that falcons have confirmed funding for next season and a few lads have signed new 2 year deals, but that Chick to Saints is more than a rumour

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Rugby fans "Clashes between internationals and club rugby is terrible, something must be done"
Also rugby fans "Lack of rugby when the internationals are on (if we ignore the rugby that was being played) is terrible, something must be done"

This rugby fan. The GP needs momentum, it’s way too stop start to get invested in the story. That might be in 2 blocks, but taking months off for internationals and then weeks off for Europe just doesn’t work. 18 regular season rounds take over 8 months.

And personally when the internationals are on I don’t watch other stuff anyway. Premiership Rugby Cup or whatever it’s called holds little interest.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

It is probably the main reason it struggles for interest.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Watching Eggchasers latest YouTube video on Exeter doesn't bode well. Apparently they are financially in a right mess.

Should we be looking to take the financially viable clubs and try and fold them into the URC? Let Exeter, Newcastle go into a league with the championship clubs?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

IDK about that thought

I think Exeter squad on paper is fine, their issues is the coaching staff which tbh is understandable Hunter has been their for 12 years and Hepher for 16 years.
Coaching teams need refreshing I believe and the fact neither are have been right to step up for Baxter in that time frame showed they lacked leadership in the back room.

Honestly they should be having a Slade at 10 now, it might cut his England chances but his time with England I feel has ended.
Next season they have so far
1. Sio, 2. Dweba, 3. Painter
4. Jenkins, 5. Tuima
6. Hooper, 7. Vincent, 8. Fisilau
9. Varney, 10. Slade
12. Tua, 13. Ikitau
11. PBB, 14. IFW, 15. Hodge

16. Heaven, 17. WGC, 18. IJS
19. Tshiunza, 20. Roots/Capstick
21. Chapman, 22. WHW, 23. Wimbush

That's a good 23 IMO especially the backline.

 

[Flankers' paradise]

on paper. Although looking at the individuals they've brought in it looks like they've just thrown money at a problem. Varney plays a more erratic style than exeter so will he have to adept or the club? 400k for Ikitau for half a season is a poor investment because they will spend all preseason planning around the best xv there, only to then drop him in at December and then whatever they build from there will inevitably end in May when he returns to Australia. Julian Heaven is currently 3rd choice for Waratahs. Unsure which of the other new signings have only signed for the one season - Happy to be proven wrong but it does stink of desperation to me

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Theres growing concerns up here. Falcons normally issue our New Season tickets early in the year (last year it was Feb) but so far not a single thing has come out from the club regarding Season Tickets. As many are saying..."the silence is deafening"..

Its not a good sign...

From one of the lads on the Falcons forum..
What's the advertisement?
"Come see us! We can barely win a game! And the good players like Radwan, Blamire you liked watching! They're gone! Have we signed anyone? No! Can we? No!"

Hes not wrong sadly..

Have I missed something on the Falcons proposed loan?

With Chick’s departure following all the others it really does feel like they are in a death spiral.

Sad to see and hard to see a viable way out.

 

[Saintjay]

If they go down to 9 teams the Prem is in a real problem.

Not sure what's worse that, or Newcastle just sat at the bottom safe from relegation and not bringing any thing to the comp for the next 2-3 years. The fan base will die off or the club, either one and the goose is cooked

 

[Flankers' paradise]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/newcastle-hoping-for-a-hollywood-ending-to-cash-problems/
sounds like there could be something on the horizon

even if we ended up the richest club in the league he stil had to leave realistically if he has international ambitions. Even when we made the semi final in 17/18 we only had Mark Wilson selected who's the only falcon since JW to get more than 7 caps so even when we do well we have a harder job getting recognition

 

[Rinkadink]

If they go down to 9 teams the Prem is in a real problem.

Remember a few years back when loads of people were calling for an 8 team "Premiership 1"...

Where are they now?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

All very vague. There may be huge substance to it, there may just have been some preliminary conversations, but until there’s some detail I’ll take it with a huge pinch of salt. As for the proposal about a clubs / CVC loan, I get there’s a mutual interest in Falcons surviving, but given how indebted most of the other clubs are, that really would feel like lunatics taking over the asylum.

As for Chick, the England thing feels little more than a convenient sound bite given age, track record and current competition. I suspect it’s more worried about where his next pay cheque is coming from and being fed up playing in a losing team haemorrhaging its best players / his mates. And I wouldn’t blame him for a minute.

 

[Geordie]

RIP Falcons.

I dont actually believe the talk coming out of KP that they have "potential" buyers / investors.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Remember a few years back when loads of people were calling for an 8 team "Premiership 1"...

Where are they now?

Presumably, the same place they always were - wanting a vastly strengthened Championship, with significant movement between the top 2 leagues.
Unfortunately, that desire needs to meet the reality of 20 years of asymmetrical warfare from the Prem to the Champ.

 

[Saintjay]

RIP Falcons.

I dont actually believe the talk coming out of KP that they have "potential" buyers / investors.

Yeah, it read like some things an estate agent or car salesman says.

"We've had loads of interest, better get in quick with an offer".

 

[Geordie]

Yeah, it read like some things an estate agent or car salesman says.

"We've had loads of interest, better get in quick with an offer".

Exactly...we aren't an attractive proposition so who'd want to invest other than a wealthy lifelong fan and I don't think there's many of those.

 

[Ddanno]

It's usually the hope that kills you, but the underlying hopelessness of that is doing me in. Just sounds like Dimes is begging Hugh Jackman to become a sudden convert to Rugby and Falcons and empty his bank account into it

 

[Flankers' paradise]

Tbh i can't see how it can be so hard to find someone. LI and Wuss found buyers despite having no infrastructure (i think) , no players/staff, no verifiable fan base and external debts owed to various parties. At least with us there's definitively all of the above (no matter how small) and no external debts other than the covid loan. A couple of million here could strengthen the senior squad and existing academy pathways (see we have just opened a 2nd ACE academy) whereas wuss and LI will need to spend considerably more just to get started

 

[Geordie]

Tbh i can't see how it can be so hard to find someone. LI and Wuss found buyers despite having no infrastructure (i think) , no players/staff, no verifiable fan base and external debts owed to various parties. At least with us there's definitively all of the above (no matter how small) and no external debts other than the covid loan. A couple of million here could strengthen the senior squad and existing academy pathways (see we have just opened a 2nd ACE academy) whereas wuss and LI will need to spend considerably more just to get started

i do agree with what your saying, its not a huge amount of investment required each season...but it just doesnt seem to be coming. Its literally pocket cash for the owners of the United up the road. And when they took over they were spouting all this...we want to invest in the region also, sporting and none sporting....well thats turned out to be a load of turd.

The only thing that gives hope is Marks response on the Falcons forum yesterday, which would hint that something is definitely in place...but we shall wait and see.

 

[Ddanno]

The only thing that gives hope is Marks response on the Falcons forum yesterday, which would hint that something is definitely in place...but we shall wait and see.

What's the gist of it?

 

[Geordie]

What's the gist of it?

Marks our Communications officer at the Falcons and we're seriously lucky to have him, hes great and generally very honest. Hes picked up on the negativity and basically said we're aware of the feelings and emotions, theres a lot of hard work going on in the background and developments in place, which due to legal reasons etc they cant disclose anything about a etc, but we're hoping it leads to a successful future.

Thats the basic gist. So maybe things arent as bleak as i fear. Only time will tell now.

 

[Reiser99]

i do agree with what your saying, its not a huge amount of investment required each season...but it just doesnt seem to be coming. Its literally pocket cash for the owners of the United up the road. And when they took over they were spouting all this...we want to invest in the region also, sporting and none sporting....well thats turned out to be a load of turd.

The only thing that gives hope is Marks response on the Falcons forum yesterday, which would hint that something is definitely in place...but we shall wait and see.

Is it an investment though? How many clubs are actually making a profit?

 

[Quel Carreleur]

IMO - "investment" is just a lazy way of saying "putting money in".
We all know it's never coming back out again - rugby has benefactors, not investors. But it's more tax efficient to call it an investment, and a loan to the club - hence that's what all the owners do. But also hence the huge headline debt figures when clubs release their accounts.

IMO, we need to copy the French in as much as not allowing those debts, but making them gifts, or sponsorships - so that those headline figures are never more than a season's worth of "debt", which also has an identical entry in the "income" column.
Have the money for the entire season put into a separate bank account, which needs to be signed off at least X weeks before the start of the season - ensuring that clubs can't go bust part-way through.

IMO, then pair that with financial fair play etc, but going into all that is just going round and round in circles

 

[Geordie]

Is it an investment though? How many clubs are actually making a profit?

Well this is the question isnt it. Who knows. Im just going to wait and see what unfolds.