English rugby clubs ‘heading for disaster’ after mounting £300m in debts

[Vieux Talonneur]

Here's who I can see in the top 14 courtesy of all.rugby:

Stade Francais: Zack Henry, Joe Marchant.

Toulouse: Jack Willis

Racing 92: Junior Kpoku, Henry Arundell

La Rochelle: Jack Nowell

Bordeaux Begles: None

Toulon: Kieran Brookes, Jack Singleton, Dave Ribbans

Pau: Dan Robson, Joe Simmonds

Castres: None (well bar the dead to me Henry Thomas).

Perpignan: Ali Crossdale

Bayonne: None

Clermont: None

Lyon: Joel Kpoku

Montpellier: Harry Williams, Sam Simmonds

Oyonnax: None

In D2:

Harry Glynn, Myles Edwards, Harrison Obatoyinbo, Brett Heron, Pierce Phillips, Beau Farrance, Richard Barrington, Joe Maksymiw, Zak Farrance, Harry Sloan, Henry Purdy, Cam Dodson, Darrell Dyer,
George Worth, William Greatbanks, Alfie Petch, Charlie Matthews, Billy Searle, Jonathan Joseph, Zach Kibirige, Lewis Bean, Karl Wilkins, Toby Salmon & Will Witty.

I doubt that's 100% but gives a flavour. Obviously some big names heading to France next year in Farrell, Manu, Lawes, Sinckler & Ludlam.

The England national team aren't losing out too too badly, nonetheless we'd still be better for having Willis, Arundell and Marchant in the conversation, Farrell would be picked and the likes of Ludlam and Ribbans would at least be keeping other, probably better, players honest. No problem with those past their peak / never good enough / not good enough yet going to France to boost their bank accounts or further their rugby education.

 

[stus768]

Here's who I can see in the top 14 courtesy of all.rugby:

Stade Francais: Zack Henry, Joe Marchant.

Toulouse: Jack Willis

Racing 92: Junior Kpoku, Henry Arundell

La Rochelle: Jack Nowell

Bordeaux Begles: None

Toulon: Kieran Brookes, Jack Singleton, Dave Ribbans

Pau: Dan Robson, Joe Simmonds

Castres: None (well bar the dead to me Henry Thomas).

Perpignan: Ali Crossdale

Bayonne: None

Clermont: None

Lyon: Joel Kpoku

Montpellier: Harry Williams, Sam Simmonds

Oyonnax: None

In D2:

Harry Glynn, Myles Edwards, Harrison Obatoyinbo, Brett Heron, Pierce Phillips, Beau Farrance, Richard Barrington, Joe Maksymiw, Zak Farrance, Harry Sloan, Henry Purdy, Cam Dodson, Darrell Dyer,
George Worth, William Greatbanks, Alfie Petch, Charlie Matthews, Billy Searle, Jonathan Joseph, Zach Kibirige, Lewis Bean, Karl Wilkins, Toby Salmon & Will Witty.

I doubt that's 100% but gives a flavour. Obviously some big names heading to France next year in Farrell, Manu, Lawes, Sinckler & Ludlam.

The England national team aren't losing out too too badly, nonetheless we'd still be better for having Willis, Arundell and Marchant in the conversation, Farrell would be picked and the likes of Ludlam and Ribbans would at least be keeping other, probably better, players honest. No problem with those past their peak / never good enough / not good enough yet going to France to boost their bank accounts or further their rugby education.

Pro D2 must be taking in a lot of the journeymen players that used to head to prem. Could force prem teams to have strong pathways to develop their own players more?(Or do a Baxter and just take every young Welshman they can find).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ruck.co.uk are gonna copy/paste that post and give it the ***le THE SHOCKING LIST OF PLAYERS LOST TO ENGLAND

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Cornish Pirates statement: Survival 'down to the RFU'

Outgoing Cornish Pirates majority shareholder Dicky Evans has warned that professional rugby in the Duchy could cease to exist if the concept of merit-based promotion isn't enshrined in the new Professional Game Partnership.

www.rugbypass.com

Grim reading

 

[Reiser99]

Cornish Pirates statement: Survival 'down to the RFU'

Outgoing Cornish Pirates majority shareholder Dicky Evans has warned that professional rugby in the Duchy could cease to exist if the concept of merit-based promotion isn't enshrined in the new Professional Game Partnership.

www.rugbypass.com

Grim reading

Well if it's dependent on the RFU then they're ******.

 

[McTallshort]

Coventry are 2nd in the championship and could possibly apply for promotion if they can agree a ground share with Coventry City but we all know it would never be accepted

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Coventry are 2nd in the championship and could possibly apply for promotion if they can agree a ground share with Coventry City but we all know it would never be accepted

I don't see how clubs can survive without owning their own stadium and without the extra revenue that comes with being in the premiership. Can't remember how long you have to wait for the funding but it makes it impossible to actually get up and survive.

 

[higgik]

The only way through this is franchises.
I know it is an anathema to lots, but there is not enough money in this country to have individual clubs fighting each other financially.
Ideally, PRL, CVC and RFU would set up a new league where 300-400 players were contracted to the league and 'franchised' out to the clubs for a given fee, just like the NFL.
The owners have to realise that working together to create a better product, will make them more money in the medium to long term.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If they were going to do franchising the time was when professionalism first came in - forcing it on the fans now would be a disaster

 

[higgik]

If they were going to do franchising the time was when professionalism first came in - forcing it on the fans now would be a disaster

Agree, but we are now seeing the downside of a football style system.
Everyone trying to outbid each other for players and borrowing or relying on sugar daddy owners.
Shame as the sport is the best sport to watch for the range of technical and entertainment it produces.

 

[Saintjay]

Agree, but we are now seeing the downside of a football style system.
Everyone trying to outbid each other for players and borrowing or relying on sugar daddy owners.
Shame as the sport is the best sport to watch for the range of technical and entertainment it produces.

Saints under the cap and relatively well run. How much would it cost to pay Saints to cover for others finacial issues.

Wasps, Worcester, Irish given no help but all of a sudden other clubs need bailing out

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If they were going to do franchising the time was when professionalism first came in - forcing it on the fans now would be a disaster

Yeah I wouldn't give a crap about English rugby if franchises came in

 

[stus768]

I don't see how clubs can survive without owning their own stadium and without the extra revenue that comes with being in the premiership. Can't remember how long you have to wait for the funding but it makes it impossible to actually get up and survive.

Don't you have to buy prem shares to get full revenue? And relegated clubs are not required to sell them?
Surely should get rid of them.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Well if it's dependent on the RFU then they're ******.

That was my first reaction when I read Evans' statement. It sounds pretty far-fetched that after spending decades moaning about the RFU and their support for level 2, Evans would think that they will do his bidding within 2 years in order to make this "Sunset Plan" work.

Don't you have to buy prem shares to get full revenue? And relegated clubs are not required to sell them?
Surely should get rid of them.

That's my understanding and it makes the challenge of promotion even tougher than people give it credit for being. Not only do you need to build a Premiership quality squad and backroom on Championship money, but you also need to have a war chest to buy shares in order to get your income on a par with the sides that you're trying to compete with.

 

[higgik]

Don't you have to buy prem shares to get full revenue? And relegated clubs are not required to sell them?
Surely should get rid of them.

Agree, either no shares or have franchises.

What we have is nominal promotion but set up to keep the status quo.

My argument for franchises is that it is all above board, 'we are a closed shop and will invite teams that we think will add value to the league as a whole'.

At least it is honest, rather than pretending it is open but not in reality.

 

[die_mole]

I could see franchises being set up in desired location once the league is stabilized and maybe at two professional divisions. American sports didn't go straight to a franchise model (except for mls). It was survival of the fittest (still closed shop) until the Great Depression killed off all but the strongest clubs, then those clubs agreed to establish franchises in desirable cities.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

The only way through this is franchises.
I know it is an anathema to lots, but there is not enough money in this country to have individual clubs fighting each other financially.
Ideally, PRL, CVC and RFU would set up a new league where 300-400 players were contracted to the league and 'franchised' out to the clubs for a given fee, just like the NFL.
The owners have to realise that working together to create a better product, will make them more money in the medium to long term.

Thats kind of what we did in NZ...and im of the feeling its a huge contributor to professional rugby starting to fail in NZ, people dont have the connection to these new franchises....you kind of try too get behind them but its never the same as an actual local club...do the existing clubs die or do they just play in a semi pro/amateur comp? if they keep going then you'll probably keep following them to some degree so now your splitting your time and money...but now your old club is more **** and poor than it was before so thats not as much fun as before...and basically lots of people just give up...at most catch some highlights

 

[Which Tyler]

Thats kind of what we did in NZ...and im of the feeling its a huge contributor to professional rugby starting to fail in NZ, people dont have the connection to these new franchises....you kind of try too get behind them but its never the same as an actual local club...do the existing clubs die or do they just play in a semi pro/amateur comp? if they keep going then you'll probably keep following them to some degree so now your splitting your time and money...but now your old club is more **** and poor than it was before so thats not as much fun as before...and basically lots of people just give up...at most catch some highlights

Much the same as Wales and Scotland.
It's taken 25 years for the Irish to make a success of regions, and that (so I'm told) was with very definite, and well supported regional identities already in place in everyday life.
It feels like South Africa are the only ones to make a success of franchises - and that's because they didn't really go the franchise route, just put new names and logos onto the existing clubs.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

there is a fundamental issue with creating franchises...you are often asking fierce (two neighbouring clubs) rivals too support the same team

plus more superficial issues, what colour do you make the new greater Manchester or greater Liverpool football teams...it better not be red of blue...but if youve spent your entire live supporting a red team...its not each to jump on board the yellow bandwagon

you could do what the NZ franchised did an more or less align with the largest union....Highlander wear blue...so southland fans often dont care

 

[higgik]

Much the same as Wales and Scotland.
It's taken 25 years for the Irish to make a success of regions, and that (so I'm told) was with very definite, and well supported regional identities already in place in everyday life.
It feels like South Africa are the only ones to make a success of franchises - and that's because they didn't really go the franchise route, just put new names and logos onto the existing clubs.

The franchises do not need to be new, they can be existing clubs that are licensed to run a franchise.
In the NFL, new clubs were not created in areas where there were successful teams, just the ones not successful were left to wither.
New franchises are put in expanding markets, like Cornish Pirates or Doncaster Knights.