English Union proposes compensation from Unions aggressively pursuing eligibilty rules

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Interesting to read the English union voicing concerns about other countries (i.e. Scotland, Wales and Ireland) pinching players via eligibility rules over parentage, that the RFU and/or English clubs have invested in.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-ask-world-rugby-help-13796209

This was shortly after the SRU made an announcement about expanding their resources to proactively pursue players from other countries.



I support the English union on this and was pretty much disgusted to see that the Scottish Union have recently appointed three full time staff to scour the English leagues for English born lads, many of whom have never set foot in Scotland, but who might have Scottish grandparent. I think the English statement can be seen as a direct response to the increased efforts of their neighbours and it in no way reflects badly on the English union to voice concern about this.

The SRU whimper on (in the toe curling video above) about being a "small nation" (bigger than New Zealand) with "a limited number of players" (whose fault is that?). Well, maybe if they had spent the last half century trying to spread the game across social and geographic areas rather than limiting it to the same old private schools and ex-pats they would have more talent to choose from. Despite some improvement in nurturing Scottish born talent (which is bearing fruit in the last couple of years at senior level) the SRU do make it so very easy for me to support Italy*!

I hope something is passed that provides compensation and creates a disincentive for ripping the proverbial out of eligibility rules by channelling more and more resources towards poaching players that you haven't lifted a finger to develop yourself. There is a world of difference between having a Scottish qualified player make contact with you, and going out of your way to systematically trawl players of different age groups from other countries and offer them incentives to jump ship to your union.

*yes, Italy are terrible at poaching players, but they haven't been at the forefront of the sport for 150 years, so I am less judgemental of them.

 

[mdaclarke]

I don't have a problem with players playing for teams which they have family links with. However when you are actively recruiting players with whom there are no family link then you are in danger of turning national teams into glorified club sides. I'd have the 5 year residency rule together with a rule that you must be a passport holder of the nation you a playing for.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Denny Solomona. Semesa Rokoduguni. Nathan Hughes. Ben Te'o. Henry Paul. Riki Flutey. Lesley Vainikolo. It seems to be that England also benefit from casting their net wider. Did they feel the need to compensate RFL/Super League clubs for developing Andy Farrell, Jason Robinson, Chris Ashton, Kyle Eastmond and Sam Burgess amongst others for them? I know the latter bunch are English but the same point applies that the RFU benefitted from somebody else's work.

I have no issue with players of Scottish heritage playing for Scotland, 2nd generation Irish people playing for Ireland etc. If they're entitled to a passport, they should be entitled to play for that country.

The IRFU have a similar policy in place called IQ headed up by Joe Lydon (https://www.independent.ie/sport/ru...rthing-irelandqualified-players-36155796.html). They have a database of circa 240 Ireland qualified players in the UK. I'm in no doubt that should they trawl Rugby League along the M62, the NRL, AFL (Conor Nash was a serious prospect as a fullback for Leinster before moving to Australia) and Super Rugby, they'd uncover a bunch more. The majority of these won't have any affinity towards Ireland and good on them. Some will feel an affinity to the country and a smaller number of these will be good enough to play for the national team.

Given there are roughly only 160 pro contracts in Ireland, the IRFU would be foolish not to look anywhere they can for IQ players to fill these shirts. The SRU have only half that number of pro contracts and would be even more foolish not to do the same.

I'm far more critical of the residency rule which thankfully is being tightened up.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

There's a difference between someone becoming eligible in the country and being chosen and having a team of scouts actively pursuing players in other countries.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

There's a difference between someone becoming eligible in the country and being chosen and having a team of scouts actively pursuing players in other countries.

This, the fact that they are trying to pursue them in and straight after school makes it worse IMO.

I have no problem with a 26 year old getting poached by a union TBH, it's a way of life now if they have not been capped by then, I can see why they would be willing to look elsewhere I don't blame them or the other unions TBH but to actively try a chase U20's etc is not right IMO.

People mention Hughes but the RFU didn't sign him and Wasps didn't sign him up with the idea of playing for England it just happened, unlike some unions who offer 3 year contracts with the sole purpose of capturing them.

 

[MikeTheNative]

It's a bit hypocritical of the RFU as English scouts got to Welsh 16/17 year olds and get them in English colleges like Hartpury and Filton etc, I know one talented youngster from my rugby club that this happened to. Perhaps it's slightly different as it is not RFU scouts but ones from the colleges and clubs but it's still unfair to for the England U20's to reap the rewards of this.

 

[Which Tyler]

Define the "English scouts" as the RFU haven't scouted anyone since Farrell Snr (though they did encourage the switch of Sam Burgess, they didn't originate the idea).

Of course, if you're confusing the clubs with the RFU, then...

For myself - I don't like the overseas scouting for talent, but I don't see a viable way to stop it.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Define the "English scouts" as the RFU haven't scouted anyone since Farrell Snr (though they did encourage the switch of Sam Burgess, they didn't originate the idea).

Of course, if you're confusing the clubs with the RFU, then...

For myself - I don't like the overseas scouting for talent, but I don't see a viable way to stop it.

I said all that in my post? But don't you think it's a bit hypocritical of England to then pick these players for the U20's and just say 'well technically we didn't poach them, the clubs did'?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's a bit hypocritical of the RFU as English scouts got to Welsh 16/17 year olds and get them in English colleges like Hartpury and Filton etc, I know one talented youngster from my rugby club that this happened to. Perhaps it's slightly different as it is not RFU scouts but ones from the colleges and clubs but it's still unfair to for the England U20's to reap the rewards of this.

How many of these play for England after? I can't think of any Welshmen who have played for England in a bloody age.
If anything it looks worse for Wales as they're benefiting for our superior academy and age grade setups.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I said all that in my post? But don't you think it's a bit hypocritical of England to then pick these players for the U20's and just say 'well technically we didn't poach them, the clubs did'?

I don't think it's particularly hypocritical, given that they're talking specifically about actively scouting for foreign players... not selecting domestic, already qualified ones.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I agree with Snoop completely. It's easy to say this shouldn't happen when you're the big economy that gets a significant proportion of immigrants from every generation of the other three nations and benefit from that equally if not more than poaching players on the periphery of English pro rugby.

You can consider players like Lawrence Dallaglio, Owen Farrell, Kyran Bracken etc... Compensation because they wouldn't have existed if Irish people didn't move to England. I'm sure the Scots and Welsh have their examples too.

 

[ratsapprentice]

You can consider players like Lawrence Dallaglio, Owen Farrell, Kyran Bracken etc... Compensation because they wouldn't have existed if Irish people didn't move to England. I'm sure the Scots and Welsh have their examples too.

Embarrassing levels of clutching....

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Embarrassing levels of clutching....

Not really....

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Not really....

Well then the Irish should thank the English cause if it wasn't for us Ireland might not have existed....


jokes aside.

Not sure on that comparison though.

It's like me saying that i should be able to be a Swedish citizen just because my distant relative was Swedish and without them i wouldn't be born, It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Well then the Irish should thank the English cause if it wasn't for us Ireland might not have existed....


jokes aside.

Not sure on that comparison though.

It's like me saying that i should be able to be a Swedish citizen just because my distant relative was Swedish and without them i wouldn't be born, It just doesn't work that way.

I chose those players because they were all eligible to play for Ireland, one for Italy too and one was born here. My point is basically why should England benefit from their large number immigrants and other nations not be able to benefit from their large diasporas. I don't know the extent of it in Scotland and Wales but currently between Ireland and England its Keiran Treadwell born in England and played u20 for them (u18 for Ireland) and Owen Farrell who's mum's family are Irish. Its to the advantage to the majority of the players that get picked up too, Treadwell, for example, would be at best starting for Quins and battling it out mid table had he not been approached by the IRFU, as it is he's a leader in the Ulster pack (Still going to be battling it out mid table) and a capped international in a squad coached by Joe Schmidt, its a bit of a no brainer considering its obvious these players don't consider playing for England the be all and end all or else they wouldn't move.

I definitely think its fair to say there's more of an advantage to being a cultural melting pot and have the likes of Itoje, Vunipolae, Isiekwe etc... as natural citizens because their families were immigrants a generation or three back than it is picking up a few players with grannies of whatever nationality that are, for the most part, expendable to the English game. Its definitely one for the RFU to count their blessings and shut up over rather than pointing their fingers at other unions and demanding money, .

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How's Faz Irish qualified?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

How's Faz Irish qualified?

Mother's parents are Irish.

 

[McTallshort]

I chose those players because they were all eligible to play for Ireland, one for Italy too and one was born here. My point is basically why should England benefit from their large number immigrants and other nations not be able to benefit from their large diasporas. I don't know the extent of it in Scotland and Wales but currently between Ireland and England its Keiran Treadwell born in England and played u20 for them (u18 for Ireland) and Owen Farrell who's mum's family are Irish. Its to the advantage to the majority of the players that get picked up too, Treadwell, for example, would be at best starting for Quins and battling it out mid table had he not been approached by the IRFU, as it is he's a leader in the Ulster pack (Still going to be battling it out mid table) and a capped international in a squad coached by Joe Schmidt, its a bit of a no brainer considering its obvious these players don't consider playing for England the be all and end all or else they wouldn't move.

I definitely think its fair to say there's more of an advantage to being a cultural melting pot and have the likes of Itoje, Vunipolae, Isiekwe etc... as natural citizens because their families were immigrants a generation or three back than it is picking up a few players with grannies of whatever nationality that are, for the most part, expendable to the English game. Its definitely one for the RFU to count their blessings and shut up over rather than pointing their fingers at other unions and demanding money, .

But the RFU didnt send scouts to Ireland (threads gone Irish already) to target those players did they? This is the point. The SRFU and SFA have both been very active in looking for English players with Scottish heritage and approaching them to play for the Scottish national side. That isn't the same as a players who are immigrants or even the children of immigrants wanting to play for their adopted nation.

 

[McTallshort]

Mother's parents are Irish.

He was hardly poached then was he?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Mother's parents are Irish.

which one cause his mums dad was born in Wigan, played for Wigan and England in League also pretty sure his mums mum was born in England.