[EOYT] England vs. Argentina 09/11/13

[Deleted member 53362]

He's a good leader but I still haven't seen any real "captaincy" from him.
The team clearly dropped their intensity after half time and I saw very little from Chris to suggest that he was trying to reverse this, or had even recognised it at all.
As I've said, I think he (and the rest of the team) looked complacent.
But there isn't really anyone else that looks able to do that either... otherwise they would have done it.

Could have brought an experianced club captain in at his favoured position of fly half but then he isnt the coaches son.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Our Lord and Saviour has over a seasons experience as a captain.

"Yeah, sorry Dave, but Lancaster said the only two English opensides in the premiership are Kvesic and Fraser"

 

[Peat]

How far have England gone in 2 years? Yes the culture is better etc etc but are we winning anymore games and are we playing better rugby? Honestly I dont think we are. When SL took over yes it was a mess and he needed a yoeman type of bloke, a steady eddie to settle the ship and that was Robshaw and he has done well but to go to the next level do you belive he is the man to lead? I have often defended him on here (Normally against Rats) but Saturday showed that he doesnt have the strength to get a grip of the team and that does make me sad but its the truth.

As for Hartley, if he is on his A game he is better than Youngs is currently and I am a big fan of Youngs. His Hooking and lineout throwing is better and when he puts hi mind to it as good in the loose. Youngs offers lots of energy and is a bit of a nut job but as long as Hartley keeps his mind on playing he is better.

Hartley first - I'd imagine he's been putting his mind to it for quite a few years but not getting anywhere. His hooking is not better. I don't think so. The lineout throwing is the biggest difference and Youngs has had his good games there. That said, I'm not wildly fussed on which, neither's that much except compared to the others.

Yes, I believe in Robshaw. I believe in him as a leader and as a player. Given how many of our victories seem to come from mental strength first and foremost, I particularly believe in him as a leader. If we are going to be down on him for failing to motivate a lacklustre second half against Argentina, we should be cockahoop at him motivating a comeback against Australia. The latter is a bigger thing. Is there a better leader in the squad? Tons and tons of teams take their feet off the accelerator once they've won a game and I don't get why everyone is so upset about us being the latest team to do it.

To go forwards we need better coaching and better players. Better leadership? Maybe. But I don't think that's currently an option available to us. If Robshaw were to be dropped as a player then things get different, but as long as he's in the team he leads for me.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Hartley first - I'd imagine he's been putting his mind to it for quite a few years but not getting anywhere. His hooking is not better. I don't think so. The lineout throwing is the biggest difference and Youngs has had his good games there. That said, I'm not wildly fussed on which, neither's that much except compared to the others.

Yes, I believe in Robshaw. I believe in him as a leader and as a player. Given how many of our victories seem to come from mental strength first and foremost, I particularly believe in him as a leader. If we are going to be down on him for failing to motivate a lacklustre second half against Argentina, we should be cockahoop at him motivating a comeback against Australia. The latter is a bigger thing. Is there a better leader in the squad? Tons and tons of teams take their feet off the accelerator once they've won a game and I don't get why everyone is so upset about us being the latest team to do it.

To go forwards we need better coaching and better players. Better leadership? Maybe. But I don't think that's currently an option available to us. If Robshaw were to be dropped as a player then things get different, but as long as he's in the team he leads for me.

UMMMM....can see where you are coming from but as you said there is not a better option and that feels like we are settling for him.

Regarding the coaching, on Saturday and last Saturdays performance I would say the forwards are being coached well but the backs are awful and it comes down to Farell senior who keeps selecting his son.

 

[Big Ewis]

How far have England gone in 2 years? Yes the culture is better etc etc but are we winning anymore games and are we playing better rugby? Honestly I dont think we are. When SL took over yes it was a mess and he needed a yoeman type of bloke, a steady eddie to settle the ship and that was Robshaw and he has done well but to go to the next level do you belive he is the man to lead? I have often defended him on here (Normally against Rats) but Saturday showed that he doesnt have the strength to get a grip of the team and that does make me sad but its the truth.

As for Hartley, if he is on his A game he is better than Youngs is currently and I am a big fan of Youngs. His Hooking and lineout throwing is better and when he puts hi mind to it as good in the loose. Youngs offers lots of energy and is a bit of a nut job but as long as Hartley keeps his mind on playing he is better.

England are hard to assess, because the entire Rugby world has become unpredictable and difficult to assess.
NZ have separated themselves the last 2 years even more from everybody else, and despite a lack of form still lose a game big in London. But the story here is England go on to have a very unimpressive 6N despite 4 of 5 wins, but we've talked about the absence of tries and coming close at home against Italy - which btw weren't playing out of this world either.

Elsewhere, France keep losing games, but by narrow margins...come right back to graze the draw at home against the current immortals of Rugby. We're not too sure where they are at.
In other news, Samoa made it all the way to 7th, beating a good number of Tier 1 nations in a year now.
Wales are the 2-time defending 6N champs and have thrashed England last March but are unable to win come Autumn/Summer time.
Argentina and Australia have kept falling, but the slide has been scary for Argentina, while Australia have definitively lost their Big 3 status some time ago.

I'm just saying everything seems very precarious in the Rugby world right now, and though we have some grounded certainties, a lot is way up in the air.

To get back to England, in terms of the inherent quality of their game; as in without looking at what the opposition manages in a given match; they've got some work to do, and also a lot of work that's been done. But the attack is really a problem...and they don't have enough hard qualities to utilize to cover it up and make up for it.
Good discipline/waiting for the other to get angry + 3pointers might work with some teams, traditionally Ireland and France; and England are strong enough to pierce through some weak defenses out there like the Wallabies, Scotland and Pumas atm, but there's no way that can work deep in a RWC knockout stage.
I think England really do need to get the big guns out and start scoring tries eventually. Get Croft and Tuilagi back, and implement those two black wingers

 

[kesh]

Right where to start....

Ashton, Tomkins and have to say Farrell are not international class players. Were the passes from 36 going behind Tomkins because he cannot pass or Tomkins kept over running the play?

For the NZ game I would like to see Flood start at 10, Wade and Yarde start on the wings and if either are injured then anyone but Ashton (Thomas Waldrom would be fine) and any but Tomkins at centre.

Front row would be Corbs, Hartley and would like Wilson to have another start.

*Yawn* 102 tries in 136 games for Saracens. 17 tries in 30 games for England, yet not an International class player.

Bet you dont like Eastmond too. Even though he was the stand out player in the Argentina tour. Bet you've never really liked Lancaster neither (despite his record, ignoring the Wales game) and would like it as it was with Jonno, predictable and ****e yeoman-esque.

And aside from Youngs complete inability to throw the ball (what the hell is that all about, how can he constantly be so bad at lineouts? Does it have to be a hookers job to throw?? As this really is a huge failing over something so ridiculous it's approaching autism levels) he can be a brilliant asset in the loose with ball-in-hand that Hartley just doesnt offer. I would say there isn't any hooker anywhere capable of what Young can bring go-foward wise.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

*Yawn* 102 tries in 136 games for Saracens. 17 tries in 30 games for England, yet not an International class player.

Bet you dont like Eastmond too. Even though he was the stand out player in the Argentina tour. Bet you've never really liked Lancaster neither (despite his record, ignoring the Wales game) and would like it as it was with Jonno, predictable and ****e yeoman-esque.

And aside from Youngs complete inability to throw the ball (what the hell is that all about, how can he constantly be so bad at lineouts? Does it have to be a hookers job to throw?? As this really is a huge failing over something so ridiculous it's approaching autism levels) he can be a brilliant asset in the loose with ball-in-hand that Hartley just doesnt offer. I would say there isn't any hooker anywhere capable of what Young can bring go-foward wise.

Agree Tomkins is a stop gap to Manu but at least he managed to pass the ball to Ashton for the "try". Something Manu, like Youngs above seemingly cant do.

On the form of the last 2 years then no he is not an international player.

Whats Eastmond got to do with this?

 

[kesh]

On the form of the last 2 years then no he is not an international player.

Whats Eastmond got to do with this?

Just a guess. You seem to be singling out ex-Logue players which is the standard response since the Lancaster era.

 

[psychic duck]

*Yawn* 102 tries in 136 games for Saracens. 17 tries in 30 games for England, yet not an International class player.

Bet you dont like Eastmond too. Even though he was the stand out player in the Argentina tour. Bet you've never really liked Lancaster neither (despite his record, ignoring the Wales game) and would like it as it was with Jonno, predictable and ****e yeoman-esque.

And aside from Youngs complete inability to throw the ball (what the hell is that all about, how can he constantly be so bad at lineouts? Does it have to be a hookers job to throw?? As this really is a huge failing over something so ridiculous it's approaching autism levels) he can be a brilliant asset in the loose with ball-in-hand that Hartley just doesnt offer. I would say there isn't any hooker anywhere capable of what Young can bring go-foward wise.

That's how he is remembered through the RWC. But not long before that his side put a hammering on Italy to secure England's only 6N title of the past decade. If England had done that this year, they'd have all but secured the 6N on points difference before the Wales game. Johnson's side also had a very impressive home win over Australia too IIRC.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Just a guess. You seem to be singling out ex-Logue players which is the standard response since the Lancaster era.

Logue? Oh league! bit of a complex have we?

I have enjoyed Lancasters era to a point, the forward pack is very good but the back line minus Manu and Brown are poor, just because there are 2 ex league players in it and a league players son doesnt change that fact. Ashton has been an is currently crap. Tomkins has not impressed at all athough 36 has not been great either and Farrell is very ordinary and very predicatable almost Yoeman-esque

 

[kesh]

One thing Jonno would of done is made sure Sheridan started in that Wales game. Cos Marler was always onto a hiding against Jones. But youd go back to Jonno from Lancaster?

 

[psychic duck]

One thing Jonno would of done is made sure Sheridan started in that Wales game. Cos Marler was always onto a hiding against Jones. But youd go back to Jonno from Lancaster?

Well I probably wouldn't. I just dislike that so many seemingly think his entire tenure as coach was at that World Cup.

 

[kesh]

Logue? Oh league! bit of a complex have we?

I have enjoyed Lancasters era to a point, the forward pack is very good but the back line minus Manu and Brown are poor, just because there are 2 ex league players in it and a league players son doesnt change that fact. Ashton has been an is currently crap. Tomkins has not impressed at all athough 36 has not been great either and Farrell is very ordinary and very predicatable almost Yoeman-esque

Brown was always an excellent international quality player which alot of people intially seemed to not notice. I'd be sitting there watching him make line brakes constantly (club and country) and great yards and then come the end of the match folk were saying he was ****e and i was like "which ****ing game have you been watching?"

Anyways, back to the wine. Cheers for the chat there.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Pi$$ head!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Kesh, are you actually trying to suggest that Chris Ashton is currently performing to an international standard?

 

[kesh]

Kesh, are you actually trying to suggest that Chris Ashton is currently performing to an international standard?

Yes, scoring trys is fundamental. He scored one. Full lengthers or jammy, still a try, which his stats suggest his good at.

But that tackle against the Aussies. People wont let go of that because they hate Ashton.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

No hes drunk Rats

 

[nickdnz]

I'd be suprised if anyone thought that Christian Wade or Marland Yarde wouldn't have scored that try. He had to stay on the wing and fall over the line.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

yeah and it was the wrong line before he put the ball down

 

[hjklhjkl]

No more comments until I've found somewhere to watch the entire game, not just a few minutes of try scoring highlights.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3sGCveGVkU
Here's one. Not the best quality though but watchable.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Technically Ashtons DIDN'T score the try, he went into touch before he put the ball down. He butchered 2 very easy chances and got away with 1. That's not international class.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Scoring tries is fundamental to wingers - but finishing tries like that should be done by every single premiership winger.
The fact that he didn't actually score it; it was only given due to lax officiating, is embarrassing.

Don't try to make out that this is a personality issue - I don't think I'd want to go for a beer with him, but he seems like a decent guy.

 

[HenryChinaski]

True story: My dad acrrued points on his driving license but was offered instead to go on a 'Speed awareness course'; at the course he was sitting next to Chris Ashton.
They chatted and apparently, in that setting, he was a thoroughly pleasant guy. This was back in 2011 or around then, after we won six nations. He said to my dad that the game he enjoyed most in that six nations was not the Italy rout, but the Wales game because it was tight, edgy, incredible atmosphere and a satisfying victory. It seems like he can be alright in certain scenarios'...

Now, Ashton as a player: can somebody on here who is tech-minded please get a still from the game showing that Ashtons feet were in touch and tweet it to RFU ? I want Lancaster to know for certain that Ashton ****ed it up

 

[kesh]

Once Yarde and Wade are fit he'll be out as Lancaster has said, so we can all keep our knickers on. One of whom will still have to contend with Manu completely ignoring them and overlaps. It'll be a huge forum flammer issue gone anyways, can't see what could replace it. Possibly Farrell if forgets how to kick.

 

[Peat]

I don't see how a "Tries is everything" defence can be used for Chris Ashton when he just dotted down for the first time in five. If Ashton was regularly scoring tries nobody would be talking about his defence. He's not scoring tries. Maybe that's not his fault, maybe its due to the team not creating enough. But if a player doesn't fit the team he should be dropped. Ashton is either rather poor or really not fitting the team, so either way, off he goes. Please. Now.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Yes England were flat, slow and lethargic in the second half, but the first showed what England are capable of! A back line of:

9. Dixon/Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Wade
15.Brown

. . . is much more encouraging. The forwards showed their power in the first half, albeit against a fairly feeble Puma defence, but unlike the mainstream media, I think there are reasons to be optimistic. Anyone care to disagree (or agree)?

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yes England were flat, slow and lethargic in the second half, but the first showed what England are capable of! A back line of:

9. Dixon/Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Wade
15.Brown

. . . is much more encouraging. The forwards showed their power in the first half, albeit against a fairly feeble Puma defence, but unlike the mainstream media, I think there are reasons to be optimistic. Anyone care to disagree (or agree)?

I think if we actually get our preferred players in and keep them together for any length of time so we get a good chance to see how they perform, then we can be optimistic. So far we've been seeing bits and pieces with England rather than the whole.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

I think if we actually get our preferred players in and keep them together for any length of time so we get a good chance to see how they perform, then we can be optimistic. So far we've been seeing bits and pieces with England rather than the whole.

Exactly! It was a 19 point victory scoring four tries and a win against Australia. Just listening to the media you'd have thought we had lost both games! Admittedly not complete performances, but its the first time alot of these players have played together since Cardiff. It's not all doom and gloom!