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[EOYT] England vs. Argentina 09/11/13

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Aspry said:
It's clear for me that England should win without much trouble due the awful conditions that this Puma team is facing.
Leaving aside the new coach and the internal problems in the squad, too many of our key players are out for this test and also we don't have a clear leader ahead of the team. The last time we didn't have a leader playing on the field we lost 73-13, so I am a little bit worried about this match to tell the truth.
That being said, England by 25.
Wish well for both sides and I hope at least for a fun game to watch, want to see Cordero on the field.
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If we score 25 points more than the Pumas then I'll do a naked Morris dance outside 10 Downing Street with jangley bells tied to my fingers, toes and privates. :D Anyone asks though and I say I'm campaigning for world peace, writing off world debt (including my student loan and credit card bill) and promoting sustainable energy to help save the Grey Whale because there are only about 140 of the big 'ol fellas left in the whole wide world and that's sad. :boese0556kf:
 
Makes much more sense. I'd only seen the team news on twitter, without any context or explanation.



I think it'll be Yarde/Wade. Lancaster has made no secret that Yarde is the kind of winger he likes and comparing Wade's very good form at the weekend with Ashton's as expected average showing I think we might finally see him go.
 
I fear Ashton will play I really don't understand why he is retained or picked he's a busted flush in terms of International rugby and the sooner he's dropped the better SCW would never have given him this many chances
 
I'm not sure about that. Doesn't Woodward keep praising him in various columns he's been writing?
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Is billy an 80min player though? He looked pretty dead when coming off last week. His style definitely looks to be to run himself ragged and then get subbed.
Suppose wood can cover 8 from the pitch in that case.
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He's definitely not an 80m player. At least not yet. He's making the same transition as Ben Morgan had to when he first ran out for England. I've got no problems with substituting one dynamic wrecking ball with another though.

I wouldn't change anybody in that team bar Corbs for Mako Vunipola and...maybe Parling for Lawes (which would be a very rum deal for Lawes).

What I don't get it this obsession with Wade right now so close to the All Blacks. Yes I know Wade is extremely exciting and yes I know Ashton hasn't set the world alight and yes I know he's still got defensive issues - though the same people who were saying that Israel Folau is amazing and can run around anybody then suddenly expected Chris Ashton to tackle him effectively while Folau was running in full flow in open space. Logic my friends. Use it.

Aaaanyway. The last thing we need is for England to field two inexperienced wingers for Argentina and (I presume) New Zealand. While we're at it, is there any way we can make the back line even more defensively naive? Anybody? Maybe put Kyle Eastmond in there at Center to freak Joel Tompkins out even more. Maybe even go trawling the England under 19s for a full back greener than a 100 dollar bill and put him there in place of Mike Brown because, hey, he's, like really fast and exciting!

Okay, I'm over reacting by a lot and yes I am drinking too much of this very good 21 year Highland Park but I'm going to to a Rob Ford and blame all of this on me being in a "drunken stupor" and ask that is this really the best time to bed in Christian Wade? A guy who could be thrown into the mix in the Six Nations and if he does well bring him on against the All Blacks next summer?
 
Inexperienced Wade > Experienced Ashton

And if we want to talk about experience, how many years of play does each have in union?

In any case, now is the best time to bed someone in. Better to bed in whilst playing a series of fairly meaningless one-offs, than during a tour or a Six Nations. It also means that we don't keep putting his breakthrough further and further back. Don't do it now, guarantee that people will complain about his inexperience come the 6N. And then again during the summer tours. And then again next AIs. Repeat, repeat, until injury to Ashton forces him into the team.
 
marianodan said:
Argentina:

1- Marcos Ayerza
2- Eusebio Guiñazú
3- Maximiliano Bustos
4- Mariano Galarza
5- Patricio Albacete
6- Pablo Matera
7- Julio Farías Cabello
8- Juan Manuel Leguizamón (Capitán)
9- Tomás Cubelli
10- Nicolás Sánchez
11- Juan Imhoff
12- Santiago Fernández
13 - Marcelo Bosch
14- Horacio Agulla
15- Lucas González Amorosino
Click to expand...

Substitutes:

16- Santiago Iglesias Valdez (2 tests - 0 points)
17- Nahuel Lobo (7 tests - 0 points)
18- Juan Pablo Orlandi (14 tests - 0 points)
19- Manuel Carizza (38 tests - 5 points)
20- Benjamín Macome (15 tests - 10 points)
21- Martín Landajo (24 tests - 10 points)
22- Gonzalo Tiesi (37 tests - 40 points)
23- Santiago Cordero (0 tests)

Head Coach: Daniel Hourcade.
 
Years in Union is irrelevant compared to actual experience in the international arena. If that was the case then lets go pick an under 19 England center and replace Tompkins because, hey, he's played Union for longer than Tompkins has.

I'll say it again, years playing Union is nothing and experience in international caps is everything. I find it farcical to think that playing the ABs at home is apparently "fairly meaningless" especially if the ABs exploit a green Wade and steamroller us, shredding England's nerves again so soon after Cardiff. Perfect preparation for the Six Nations that is.

You may dismiss bedding him in on a tour but then I think thats the best time to do it. Woodward's "tour of hell" made a lot of men out of boys back then and we had the perfect chance to see who could sink or swim. We could accept that happening thousands of miles away but to trying it so close to home at HQ is just asking for mockery.

Look, I agree, Wade should start eventually but it needs to happen at the appropriate time and chucking him in against the best team in the world looking to layeth the almighty smacketh down against an England that made them look extremely ordinary 12 months ago isn't the best time to it. On the other hand, throwing Wade into the 1st test against the ABs next Summer and seeing if he rises to the challenge is far more preferable.
 
Prestwick. are you honestly saying Ashton should be in the England squad?

Also regards the tour of hell, it ended lots of international careers prematurely which resulted in a lack of talent after the 2003 world cup team retired.
 
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Tallshort said:
Prestwick. are you honestly saying Ashton should be in the England squad?

Also regards the tour of hell, it ended lots of international careers prematurely which resulted in a lack of talent after the 2003 world cup team retired.
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I'm saying that the best players need to be in there. I'd rather have David Strettle in there in Ashton's place for example. We need to be combining form with experience.
 
I'd argue is exactly the time you want Wade playing. IF Ashton really is the reliable, experiences option then he will gain very little from the Argentina game compared to Wade who needs to start being introduced to bigger games. Running on the theory that Ashton is the best option for the All Black Lancaster should simply tell him, 'I trust you to do a job in two weeks time, I want to give Wade some more experience, go have a few beers in the stands and rest up for training on Monday'.

Of course if, like me, you think Ashton shouldn't start against the All Blacks then he should be dropped now.
 
Tallshort said:
Prestwick. are you honestly saying Ashton should be in the England squad?

Also regards the tour of hell, it ended lots of international careers prematurely which resulted in a lack of talent after the 2003 world cup team retired.
Click to expand...

No it didn't. It ended international careers of duds who were never going to make it. Whereas Wilkinson, Lewsey and Vickery all managed fine after. I don't see how that tour had much relevance to the talent England had in 2004.
 
Patchey said:
IF Ashton really is the reliable, experiences option then he will gain very little from the Argentina game compared to Wade who needs to start being introduced to bigger games. Running on the theory that Ashton is the best option for the All Black Lancaster should simply tell him, 'I trust you to do a job in two weeks time, I want to give Wade some more experience, go have a few beers in the stands and rest up for training on Monday'.
Click to expand...

I cannot disagree more. This is a very raw backline and the entire unit needs to play as one in both games. If we are serious about winning and giving players the best chance to shine and build confidence then there can be no rotation at this juncture in the backline at least.

Prestwick does have something of a point. This isn't really the ideal time to be playing Wade. Unsettled team, difficult games. But then, there is no ideal time. Its never a good time. At least he is on form and will start on a *relatively* easy game. But yeah, ideally you'd have things far more settled.

However, while acknowledging his logic, I just want Ashton dropped. Enough is enough. He does not offer enough in attack, he does not offer enough in defence. Folau is a beast, sure, but he didn't beat Ashton that way. He beat Ashton because he was too narrow and tracked the wrong runner and got nowhere near him. Which might be ok if it wasn't another on a long list of black marks. Let him be gone God, please let him be gone. God only knows what they see in him.

At which point, Wade is the next taxi off the rank. Go for it. It is the lesser of two evils and possibly a great blessing.
 
Prestwick: I do mean this genuinely, and not in a cheap way. But you can't fail to have noticed that you are the only person on this board who wants Ashton to stay (and you even suggest Strettle as a possible replacement).
Is it just coincidence that you are also the only Sarries fan here?

People were using the "blood him on the summer tour" argument against Wade in the 6n and guess what? They did, and he ****ing smashed it... unlike one Mr Strettle.
 
Peat said:
I cannot disagree more. This is a very raw backline and the entire unit needs to play as one in both games. If we are serious about winning and giving players the best chance to shine and build confidence then there can be no rotation at this juncture in the backline at least.

Prestwick does have something of a point. This isn't really the ideal time to be playing Wade. Unsettled team, difficult games. But then, there is no ideal time. Its never a good time. At least he is on form and will start on a *relatively* easy game. But yeah, ideally you'd have things far more settled.

However, while acknowledging his logic, I just want Ashton dropped. Enough is enough. He does not offer enough in attack, he does not offer enough in defence. Folau is a beast, sure, but he didn't beat Ashton that way. He beat Ashton because he was too narrow and tracked the wrong runner and got nowhere near him. Which might be ok if it wasn't another on a long list of black marks. Let him be gone God, please let him be gone. God only knows what they see in him.

At which point, Wade is the next taxi off the rank. Go for it. It is the lesser of two evils and possibly a great blessing.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify I wasn't suggesting that is what should happen. I totally agree that the same team should start against Argentina and against NZ. I was offering that as a hypothetic argument for playing Wade this week even if you think Ashton is better. Basically I just Wade to start.
 
I'd say this is an ideal time to let Wade into the side. If anything the fact we are facing the ABs is even more reason. Once you've faced them, there is little more that you haven't experienced. As these games don't amount to much at all, I'd rather we get the ball rolling now. Let them make mistakes in these games so come the 6N they are a bit more settled. If we don't put Wade in now then he won't get in in the 6N and that will be a year of wasted potential right there whilst Ashton stays on another year. He's not going to improve and has been given countless chances. We need to be developing the young players NOW and getting the players we want in the final team now. It's madness to retain a player you know you will want to drop later.
 
I just think of how the All Blacks started Tom Taylor at 10 against South Africa this year. They could have gone for a more experienced option in Colin Slade, IMO there isn't a real difference in quality between the two and I prefer Slade as a player. But they went for the younger, more inexperienced player and gambled that he'd raise his game.

Why can't we apply the same logic here?
 
I think the Argentina game is perfect for Wade, if we can get some good ball to him he will show his worth. I'm not certain he is the long term answer but he deserves his shot, especially in light of Ashton and his form over the last year.
 
Patchey - The difference is the Kiwis had more quality to put around a rookie. They could make it a fair deal easier for them. But, yeah, here's hoping.
 
Forgetting last year's result which we have to because it was an anomaly, players with the pure magical ability of Wade are the only chance in hell we have of beating New Zealand. Slow and steady/playing it safe will not win games against New Zealand. Also, the All Blacks WILL score tries against you no matter what; I just remember how easily they retorted with those early second half tries last year. It seems to me that you've got to have some firepower of your own, and to be honest without Tuilagi, where on earth else is that going to come from?

On the other hand, I can concede the argument that it's not about just one game, but about building the right team to win each game.
 
Tom Youngs and Joe Launchbury won their fourth caps each when they played against the All Blacks last year; it didn't seem to affect them too much. Wade would be winning his third if he plays this weekend.

The choice at lock last year was between Launchbury, Palmer, and Botha. It was an easy one to make: Talent and form are far better than experience.
 

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