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First Test: Australia vs. British and Irish Lions (22/06/13)

Can anyone tell me what Cuthberts done to get in the test side?

Otherwise good side, really chuffed for 2 tigers, first Youngs who continues to have a great season and second to Croft who proves his many critics wrong......again.
 
His critics don't say he's a bad player, we call him a luxury.

One which the Lions can afford, a lot of teams cannot.
Croft's selection is the reason for Lydiate being on the bench, despite him not being and impact player.
He's there in case we start losing the gainline battle, which Croft hardly specialises in.
 
Just getting on the tour was a tall order for him, many people on here and in the press asking why he was selected ahead of Jones, Wood, Robshaw etc and no one at all had him as a likely test starter, getting that test spot has proven enough people wrong for me I dont expect the lazy stereotypes about him to stop being banded about but to make a 3rd Lions test start must mean he is doing something right.
 
ratsapprentice said:
His critics don't say he's a bad player, we call him a luxury.

One which the Lions can afford, a lot of teams cannot.
Croft's selection is the reason for Lydiate being on the bench, despite him not being and impact player.
He's there in case we start losing the gainline battle, which Croft hardly specialises in.
Click to expand...

The Lions can afford a luxury player? News to me as for the other teams are we talking England and Tigers because he seems to feature quite regularly for them.
 
Your branding of them as "lazy stereotypes" is lazy in itself.
They are perfectly legitimate criticisms.
No one is ignoring his quality.

This is like the Robshaw situation, people can't seem to accept that players can have both pro's and con's.

The Tiger's can afford to play him, because they have a squad that can gain dominance/parity with him on the field, as is the situation with this years Lions and the 2009 squad.
England cannot always do so, hence why he is not a guaranteed starter.
 
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munstermuffin said:
Australia: B Barnes (NSW Waratahs); I Folau (NSW Waratahs), A Ashley-Cooper (NSW Waratahs), C Lealiifano (Brumbies), D Ioane (Queensland Reds); J O'Connor (Melbourne Rebels), W Genia (Queensland Reds); B Robinson (NSW Waratahs), S Moore (Brumbies), B Alexander (Brumbies), K Douglas (NSW Waratahs), J Horwill (Queensland Reds, capt), B Mowen (Brumbies), M Hooper (NSW Waratahs), W Palu (NSW Waratahs).
Replacements: S Fainga'a (Queensland Reds), J Slipper (Queensland Reds), S Kepu (NSW Waratahs), R Simmons (Queensland Reds), L Gill (Queensland Reds), N Phipps (Melbourne Rebels), P McCabe (Brumbies), K Beale (Melbourne Rebels).
Click to expand...
Decent side, I'm actually happy with JoC at 10 and Barnes at fullback, where Barnes edges JoC is with his tactical kicking and the Wallabies won't win by playing like saffers or NH, they need to play to their strengths, which is a running game.
It seems doubly likely they'll play an expansive game with a second playmaker at inside.

Anyway only real issue with the Wallaby squad is the lack of depth. Kepu, Fainga and especially Phipps aren't near the quality of the lions bench. (Where is Polota-nau?)
 
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Yet always starts when hes fit?

And trust me if he was just a fancy dan who spent his time on the wing and away from the biff then cockerill would not have him anywhere near the tigers team.

As for the pros and cons some players seem to be remembed or rated because of their cons more than their pros. Robshaw, Manu, Farell, Wilkinson even Johnson (hes only a leader apparently) are all players who get unfairly criticized IMO but then everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
 
I'd feel a lot more comfortable with Roberts/Tuilagi at 12, but Davies has been the form centre on this tour. Hopefully he can provide the foil for BOD to do his stuff.

Cuthbert's not great in defence but if the forwards do their thing then the likes of Sexton, BOD and North could run riot.
 
SomeOke said:
(Where is Polota-nau?)
Click to expand...
Think he broke his arm playing Super Rugby a few weeks ago.


There's a couple in the side there on reputation rather than form (no way Croft, Warburton and Maitland have been better than SOB, Tipuric and Zebo, for example) but it's a decent enough side.

Think it'll be a very close test, with hopefully the Lions edging it.
 
Trying to remember the last time a fully fit Croft was benched for England. I think it might be Autumn 2009. He's been a guaranteed starter for a long time when available. He might be nudged aside now by what is rapidly becoming England's best back-row pool in some time, but I wouldn't put money on it.

That he is here so soon after that neck injury is remarkable. I don't think too many people were predicting he'd be in the squad. I didn't see too many people naming him in their test team either. In this sense, he has very much proved his critics wrong. The work isn't done, its only beginning, but he's dumbfounded expectations to date. I don't think enough attention has been paid to the nature of his performances for the Lions - he has been in the centre of the park helping gain dominance through tackling and rucking. The flash stuff has simply been an aside.

p.s. Croft does his fair share of the tight work at Leicester whenever I've watched them.

TRF_Olyy said:
There's a couple in the side there on reputation rather than form (no way Croft, Warburton and Maitland have been better than SOB, Tipuric and Zebo, for example) but it's a decent enough side.
Click to expand...

Despite playing one less game, Croft has made just as many tackles as O'Brien - who has missed twice as many as Croft, while giving away 5 penalties in 3 games rather than 2 in 2. Each have made on average a turnover a game. Has O'Brien's carrying really been so much better than Croft's that despite superior discipline, defensive work, and lineou work, he has been head and shoulders ahead of Croft?

Fair enough if you believe that, I don't for one minute.

edit edit: The above is as much attack on O'Brien as defence of Croft. Until O'Brien sorts out his discipline he will never be a consistent top international back-row, and it irritates me that people overlook it so much. No mention of that horrific dogleg that cost us a try earlier in the tour either. Just not a smart rugby player.
 
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I'd be worried if Warburton or Heaslip got injured as our backrow will be totally unbalanced. Sean O'Brien was the man for the bench and in my opinion Lydiate is a starter or not in squad. His game isn't suited to been a bench player. Youngs IMO is worst form of 3 9's but I'll accept he's different style, Farrell was always bench but Maitland is a big issue. Not playing well and I think Hogg, Zebo, Kearney or even Tuilagi (If fit) were better options. If BOD goes down injured I think our backs will crumble big time so it vital he's there as the glue.
 
England absolutely demolishing the Wallaby scrum in 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uynys0SY1Q

Have a closer look...completely different front row to the A team - Daley, Faingaa and Ma'afu........it was a front row injury crisis at the time....


Wales dismantling the Wallaby scrum in later in 2010

…Faingaa again at hooker....Stephen Jones is a different proposition. Alexander has improved since then....and oh yes...we still won that game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLVVx_qprUA


And who could forget the scrum problems that the Irish gave the Wallabies at the RWC in 2011[/QUOTE]
 
Fully agree with what you say Peat. I'm aware that Croft can go missing, but as far as I saw against the Warahtahs, Croft was really physical and was a key part of the gain-line defence, which we just didn't seem to have against Brumbies, despite fielding what was for many people a first choice back-row.

Maybe I'm wrong but it's not only O'Brien shipping penalties...I think I recall Lydiate giving away quite a number for different reasons. His physicality and work-rate will help in the event of a tight-game...but so would Faletau's.

I would have chosen Zebo over Maitland, but I guess we need to remember that Gatland had all these options available to him for the original touring party, and opted for Maitland. Perhaps his thinking is that first choice tourists should have priority over late call-ups, who should only be used when necessary.

I'm really delighted for Corbisiero.. sure, he was a late call up but the fact that he is chosen to start speaks alot about the coaches belief in him as, first and foremost a scrummager. On another note, the call up itself was such a clear snub to Marler, that the coaches would rather have a guy who has played only a couple of games back from Injury, than someone who has played every england and harlequins game for a while now :p Maybe Lancaster will follow this precedent :p
 
Lancaster has everytime Corbs has been fit. The real snub/lesson is Vunipola > Marler.
 
I don't see much difference or advantage between the respective backlines - both class outfits but Israel Folau being picked on the wing ...this bloke may make a difference.

6'5", 100 kg.

Starting in Rugby elague, switching to Aussie Rules ( for $1m bucks or so) he has played only 13 games of professional rugby but the stats show he has the most tries, line breaks and metres gained so far this year in the Super rugby competition. He has had experience of the big stage and intense games - in League he played for 5 games for Queensland in the Sate of Origin series - These games are test match intensity....and a couple of winning grand finals as well.

It is the high ball where he may make a difference. He used to be great, now, after two years of playing Aussie Rules, he is even better in the air. Check out some of his past exploits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnqo0ypxgnY

It will be a great match up on the wing against North...both big fast boys but with North's dodgy hamstring...watch out for O'Conner and Leali'ifano to kick high to Folau's wing.
 
O'Brien's penalty count doesn't tell the whole story in my opinion considering he gave up three (I think) against the Brumbies when first of all he had a bit of an off game and that the front 5 were a pile of **** that day and put their backrow under a lot of pressure. I wouldn't have been worried at all with him in the test with Warburton and Heaslip doing most of the turnover work.

I'm happy with Croft starting, we need him in the line-out and he's done it before for the Lions very well with Heaslip as well. Lydiate just doesn't deserve a bench spot in my opinion, he can only cover 6 so we're in trouble if Heaslip or Warburton go down and he doesn't bring an awful lot to the game and can't be used as an impact sub.
 
i am happy with the squad, but still a little miffed with Gatlands obsession with lydiate that he is on the bench. SOB would be a better option and can cover 6,7,8. Poor selection IMO. Gatland missed a trick there.

I am more worried about the locks, if either get injured i am not convinced with Gray or Evans. I would of liked Hamilton or Launchbury in there. Sure JL tailed of but he is on great form in Argentina and his overall game is better than Evans/Gray and he is more consistent. Gatland as i said before played to much emphasis on the 6N wales vs england game.
 

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