French greats say imports are ruining French Rugby

[Shaggy]

Not wanting to start something here, as:

A/ I know ANOTHER thread/debate on overseas players ruining French Rugby, is about as welcome to the French posters on here, as the annual "Ban the Haka" thread that I so much look forward to

and B/ While interviewing two former French players just squeaks in as "greats" numerically, it hardly constitutes what they are saying, as the overriding opinion of the masses.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...ith-flooded-market-say-france-greats#comments

... But, as the article doesn't reference where it gets it's 55% of players being foreign, does anyone have a reputable source where these figures can either be proven or dis-proven.

I know there's a quota of sorts, as per this article: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...-sets-french-tryscoring-record-loses-contract , but I thought quotas couldn't be enforced because of EU law?

or is that why the JIFF players can be of any nationality?

... Also, does anyone have any links to Salary caps and exceptions?

Finally, is there a restriction in Top 14, as to how many foreign players can take the field for their club, in a match?

Thanks

Shaggy

 

[sharkfan]

Not wanting to start something here, as:

A/ I know ANOTHER thread/debate on overseas players ruining French Rugby, is about as welcome to the French posters on here, as the annual "Ban the Haka" thread that I so much look forward to

and B/ While interviewing two former French players just squeaks in as "greats" numerically, it hardly constitutes what they are saying, as the overriding opinion of the masses.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...ith-flooded-market-say-france-greats#comments

... But, as the article doesn't reference where it gets it's 55% of players being foreign, does anyone have a reputable source where these figures can either be proven or dis-proven.

I know there's a quota of sorts, as per this article: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...-sets-french-tryscoring-record-loses-contract , but I thought quotas couldn't be enforced because of EU law?

or is that why the JIFF players can be of any nationality?

... Also, does anyone have any links to Salary caps and exceptions?

Finally, is there a restriction in Top 14, as to how many foreign players can take the field for their club, in a match?

Thanks

Shaggy

Yes, its laughable that even the son of a former Springbok great managed find his way into the French team, also the names Scot Spedding and Rory Kockot doesn't sound French at all now does it?

 

[Mikel92]

Banning the haka seems to be born out of emotion, and in some isolated cased; a vendetta against the All Blacks (due to being indifferent about other Pacific hakas). The English already have their way with rugby, if something doesn't suit them then we see it changed at the top level within a matter of months. At least imports flooding the market is a logical argument and it is actually happening.

I guess after the World Cup we'll see an influx of southern hemisphere players entering the northern rugby sphere. I heard there would be enough Aussies alone to form an entire team of exodus players. I suppose with private owners there's not much you can do?

Just in regards to French rugby, I was reading this earlier today actually: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/f...e-worst-france-team-ever-20150319-1m3hch.html

 

[Shaggy]

Banning the haka seems to be born out of emotion, and in some isolated cased; a vendetta against the All Blacks (due to being indifferent about other Pacific hakas). The English already have their way with rugby, if something doesn't suit them then we see it changed at the top level within a matter of months. At least imports flooding the market is a logical argument and it is actually happening.

I guess after the World Cup we'll see an influx of southern hemisphere players entering the northern rugby sphere. I heard there would be enough Aussies alone to form an entire team of exodus players. I suppose with private owners there's not much you can do?

Just in regards to French rugby, I was reading this earlier today actually: http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/f...e-worst-france-team-ever-20150319-1m3hch.html

Thanks for the article link -I'm not really trying to get into the state of French Rugby, or why ... my comment about the Haka thread is that Myself, and many others have had to explain the same stuff, year after year (so it's annoying more than anything), and I guess French fans suffer the same frustration with this issue.

I'm really just wanting to read up on what the facts are, without passing judgement, so links to anything in my original post will do

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The English already have their way with rugby, if something doesn't suit them then we see it changed at the top level within a matter of months.

.....what the **** are you on about?

 

[TRF_heineken]

Oh no Shaggy!!

Do you have any idea what you have done??? Gaston and Tony and maybe even Frenchfan are going to rip you a new one!!

Anyways, this is nothing new really. I have been saying this for a long time, it's just comforting to see that French people themselves also realises it.

 

[goodNumber10]

The English already have their way with rugby, if something doesn't suit them then we see it changed at the top level within a matter of months. \

Such as?

 

[Shaggy]

Oh no Shaggy!!

Do you have any idea what you have done??? Gaston and Tony and maybe even Frenchfan are going to rip you a new one!!

Anyways, this is nothing new really. I have been saying this for a long time, it's just comforting to see that French people themselves also realises it.

Well, I think I remember that occuring previously ... don't pretend to know anything close to those guys knowledge about domestic French Rugby, hence my request for links, as all of my reading about quotas etc, seems to contradict, which makes me wonder if what I'm looking at is out of date.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well, I think I remember that occuring previously ... don't pretend to know anything close to those guys knowledge about domestic French Rugby, hence my request for links, as all of my reading about quotas etc, seems to contradict, which makes me wonder if what I'm looking at is out of date.

Lol, well the big difference is that you and I see it from an outsider's perspective and they see it from the french perspective. It is highly unlikely that we'll ever agree on this topic because we are on the other side of the fence from them.

The only comparison I'd use are the ITM Cup and the Currie Cup. These to local tournaments have 95% locally players playing in all the teams competing. They feed the National teams, and ensures that there are enough depth.

They keep pointing the finger at PSA and that he's a crappy coach. My question is if he is replaced, and they appoint a new coach, would there be better performances?? The influx of other nationality players are a problem for them. Rory Kockott, Scot Spedding and Claassen are just 3 or 4 guys who have made the switch and have been called up to the french squad. But for those 3 or 4 Saffas, I can name Bryan Habana, Wynand Olivier, Bakkies Botha, Johan Goosen, Juandre Kruger, Chilliboy Ralepelle, who will never play for France. Then you get a bunch of youngsters, like Paul Willemse who are there on a 2-year contract, making a crapload of money, then he comes back to SA, and gets a springbok call-up.

I think the return in investment is less than 25% of players from abroad, who will eventually become French National players. Now I'm no CEO, but even I'd see that as a bad investment...

 

[Shaggy]

Lol, well the big difference is that you and I see it from an outsider's perspective and they see it from the french perspective. It is highly unlikely that we'll ever agree on this topic because we are on the other side of the fence from them.

The only comparison I'd use are the ITM Cup and the Currie Cup. These to local tournaments have 95% locally players playing in all the teams competing. They feed the National teams, and ensures that there are enough depth.

They keep pointing the finger at PSA and that he's a crappy coach. My question is if he is replaced, and they appoint a new coach, would there be better performances?? The influx of other nationality players are a problem for them. Rory Kockott, Scot Spedding and Claassen are just 3 or 4 guys who have made the switch and have been called up to the french squad. But for those 3 or 4 Saffas, I can name Bryan Habana, Wynand Olivier, Bakkies Botha, Johan Goosen, Juandre Kruger, Chilliboy Ralepelle, who will never play for France. Then you get a bunch of youngsters, like Paul Willemse who are there on a 2-year contract, making a crapload of money, then he comes back to SA, and gets a springbok call-up.

I think the return in investment is less than 25% of players from abroad, who will eventually become French National players. Now I'm no CEO, but even I'd see that as a bad investment...

Well, it's good for the French clubs, who are making the investment, and it's good for NZ Rugby, as it clears out some of the older players, and allows others an opportunity ... even if the article is true, 45% of 14 club squads (french players), plus overseas eligible players equals about six full squads (just in French Players), which is more players than our Super Rugby squads of five each.

I guess the article is mainly about the influence on the playing styles, and the stifling of French flair, but I think that's more about how the game has changed, and the defensive nature of modern rugby in general, that probably doesn't lend itself to traditional french style.

 

[Tony Manx]

Really nothing new to be said, for or against, that has not already been said ad nauseam!!!

 

[Shaggy]

Really nothing new to be said, for or against, that has not already been said ad nauseam!!!

I know, just after info for my own knowledge, regarding player percentages, quotas, EU law, ... even if you can PM me some links, that would be great.

 

[tituslechmakus]

The JIFF can be of any nationality, it is just a matter of where did they go to rugby school.

There is no limit to how many foreign players can play a match, there is a limit on how many JIFF you have on your squad list.

There is no restriction due to EU laws for player limitation as all these SH players are not european. There is a EU law saying that players from any memeber state are considered as regular workers, like for any other job. So there cannot be players limitation on European players. That made a mess in football at the begining of 90', because a lot of them were europeans.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Shaggy, your questions seem reasonable, I hope they're treated in the right spirit.

tituslechmakus, you're right about what you say about European law, but is there no central funding that's contingent on fielding a certain number of French qualified players in the Top 14 / Pro D2? There certainly is the English Championship and I believe in the AP. That said, if a legal challenge was mounted against it on the basis that it encourages discrimination, I suspect that it could be in shaky ground.

heineken, has it been suggested that the goal of foreign imports is to bolster the French team? I know some unions have been accused of and even admitted to doing this, but I wasn't aware that France are one. Unless they are, the number of imports who end up playing for France is irrelevant and as has been pointed out, is an expense being covered by the clubs, not by FFR, so how could their ROI be poor?

 

[gaston le gaff]

As said above that there is no certain numbers of French qualified players in the TOP 14, but what the Jiff says islayers must have 5 years playing with a french club before they are 21 yrs old to qualify as jiff players so there fore there are very few foreigners for obvious reasons. This season the Jiff qualifying numbers on the team sheet must be 55% of the 23 players named so you are looking at an average of 11/12 players from the 23 on the team sheet. This is taken on a seasons average over 23 matches not per match and team sheet, hope this clears up some of the queries asked

 

[Gavin]

I have always thought French players have more desire to play for their clubs than their nation. On top of that the lack of suitable coach for the French team and the apparent' Old Man's Club dictating the national side

 

[smartcooky]

Well, it's good for the French clubs, who are making the investment, and it's good for NZ Rugby, as it clears out some of the older players, and allows others an opportunity ...

THIS

I have always considered Tony Johnson's view on this to be right on the money. Every time an older, established player leaves our shores to play a for a European Rugby Club, a door closes for an young upcoming player in that country, and a door opens for a young, fresh talent in our country.

 

[Tony Manx]

Do you read the forums, re: the Haka argument? I was stating my opinion as it was mentioned in passing. ****ing idiot.


Every law imposed on us which slows the game down.

**** me man, the English are such *****. Go kill yourselves.
F*ckin c*unts. No wonder everyone hates you.

Very educated and a point so very well argued....thanks for your contribution!

 

[Shaggy]

As said above that there is no certain numbers of French qualified players in the TOP 14, but what the Jiff says islayers must have 5 years playing with a french club before they are 21 yrs old to qualify as jiff players so there fore there are very few foreigners for obvious reasons. This season the Jiff qualifying numbers on the team sheet must be 55% of the 23 players named so you are looking at an average of 11/12 players from the 23 on the team sheet. This is taken on a seasons average over 23 matches not per match and team sheet, hope this clears up some of the queries asked

Thanks guys, that does clear things up for me, and as I said earlier, 55% of 14 sides in the Top 14 is a greater number than 100% of Five super sides, which in my eyes, means more than enough players to select a decent French side. I guess the only issue would be if those foreign players made up a higher percentage in certain positions.

As for the negating of traditional French style as a result of the inclusion of foreign players, as I said previously, the changes in the rules, and the advent of defensive coaches are more likely to have impacted the way all sides now play (not just the French). As mentioned by others, the coaches probably have more impact too, as they are the ones showing the developing players how to play, and implementing the game style at the top level.