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Further S14 expansion

C

coyley

Guest
Being from the northern hemisphere, I must admit I don't follow the politics of super 14 that much but I do enjoy watching the games live!! I say the more super games the better!!
 
S

Steve-o

Guest
It's not an Australian point of view, if anything it is a New South Wales point of view, as they have thier clubs who don't want a second tier competition unlike the rest of the Australian community. (speaking generally)

I think you will find alot of Australians think it will be an alright idea ONLY if we get the second tier competition first... [/b]

But that's the thing, only Australians will think it's an alright idea. That pretty clear already. SA and NZ posters have no desire to expand the competition like this.

Fortunately our rugby is growing and is a major sport. A venture like this would do us ill. The only nation to really benefit by this proposal is Australia.

I think that's why he said "seems to be heavly australian point of view", because it was drawn up by ARU and will benefit Australia only, with some browny points from Japan to spare.

O'Neill is trying to fix the symptoms IMO.
 
S

sambãd5

Guest
exactly my point. the npc and currie cup hold enough depth to make the game grow. but that also means that we get rugby for about 9-10months of the year. oz has super 14 and internationals only. that leaves a massive gap, which this proposal is ment to fix. but the only country that needs fixing is australia.
 
C

coyley

Guest
exactly my point. the npc and currie cup hold enough depth to make the game grow. but that also means that we get rugby for about 9-10months of the year. oz has super 14 and internationals only. that leaves a massive gap, which this proposal is ment to fix. but the only country that needs fixing is australia.
[/b]
Sounds like the politics in the southern hemisphere is rife!!

Just hope it doesn't affect the way the rugby is played!!
 
S

Steve-o

Guest
<div class='quotemain'>
exactly my point. the npc and currie cup hold enough depth to make the game grow. but that also means that we get rugby for about 9-10months of the year. oz has super 14 and internationals only. that leaves a massive gap, which this proposal is ment to fix. but the only country that needs fixing is australia.
[/b]
Sounds like the politics in the southern hemisphere is rife!!

Just hope it doesn't affect the way the rugby is played!! [/b][/quote]

No politics dude, it's called sharing ideas and view points
 
S

sanzar

Guest
It's not an Australian point of view, if anything it is a New South Wales point of view, as they have thier clubs who don't want a second tier competition unlike the rest of the Australian community. (speaking generally)

I think you will find alot of Australians think it will be an alright idea ONLY if we get the second tier competition first... [/b]

What's your beef with NSW BLR? It seems like there's always some pot shot you've gotta take... A number Qld clubs were pushing for the abolision of the ARC as well you know. And really, these clubs have been around for a 100 years, so of course they were going to try and retain their influence and importance, we just shouldn't let them is all. And for your information too, hard though it may be for you to believe, if you talk to most rugyb supporters in NSW, they too want a second teir national competition. The people who oppose it are a very small minority who belong to the old guard of club rugby.
 
P

Prestwick

Guest
O'Neil is a pretty smart knob-end though and he knows what the broadcasters want, and ultimately that's what matters because that's where the money comes from. [/b]

Fixed for great justice. GOODJOB! :lol:

They all sound reasonable, but would South Africa and New Zealand go for it? The latter are very protective about the number of games their players play as well as the NPC and don't forget South Africa and their domestic fun-fest.

Also, I would probably point out that the Japanese would want nothing less than full ownership and administration of their Super 14 franchise...if you could call it that, SANZAR will effectively be outsourcing top flight pro rugby to a Japanese company to administer and run in Tokyo. Crusaders vs Toyota Verblitz anyone?

One interesting thing would be to see the Japanese speedsters run amok. That'd be genius as those guys are absolutely fearless, they genuinely scare me.
 
S

sanzar

Guest
<div class='quotemain'> O'Neil is a pretty smart knob-end though and he knows what the broadcasters want, and ultimately that's what matters because that's where the money comes from. [/b]

Fixed for great justice. GOODJOB! :lol:

They all sound reasonable, but would South Africa and New Zealand go for it? The latter are very protective about the number of games their players play as well as the NPC and don't forget South Africa and their domestic fun-fest.

Also, I would probably point out that the Japanese would want nothing less than full ownership and administration of their Super 14 franchise...if you could call it that, SANZAR will effectively be outsourcing top flight pro rugby to a Japanese company to administer and run in Tokyo. Crusaders vs Toyota Verblitz anyone?

One interesting thing would be to see the Japanese speedsters run amok. That'd be genius as those guys are absolutely fearless, they genuinely scare me. [/b][/quote]

What would an English rugby fan have against O'Neil :blink: ...

As I said above, I think O'Neil is just posturing in all honesty and probably only aiming to get a small fraction of what he's put forward.

As for Japan, well I think they'd be happy to get anything really because it would give them continued exposure to top level rugby.
 
B

BLR

Guest
What's your beef with NSW BLR? It seems like there's always some pot shot you've gotta take...

A number Qld clubs were pushing for the abolision of the ARC as well you know.

The people who oppose it are a very small minority who belong to the old guard of club rugby.
[/b]
When you support a club that is constantly under siege from NSW media and gets a particular outlet throw out allegations left and right without apologising for those which were blatantly incorrect I am sure you will be a bit offensive about it, many Force fans which have followed it will feel the same, plus it's part of Australian rugby that everyone outside of NSW doesn't like them, it just comes naturally. :D

QLD clubs are pretty sickly in thier power, and they weren't the ones throwing up a huge stink when the ARC was being put together and throughout the competition thier clubbies didn't go on various blogs complaining how it was ruining the fabric of Australian rugby...

As I said in the post, I was being general, the thing is though that the old guard of club rugby is the one with all the power in NSW...who in turn have all the power in the ARU...see where I am going with this?
What would an English rugby fan have against O'Neil :blink: ...
[/b]
A ****** in Australia is the same definition of a ****** in the UK, remember when I said in one of the posts alot of the English fans will see it as an Australian rule change because of the constant bleating by O'Neill?

On a side note it is funny that SMH released a story saying that the Australian teams all support this new idea, yet didn't mention the Force at all and in todays West Australian there was a piece talking to Cam Shepherd and he said that he thought it was a bad idea as he thought that players would suffer burnout with the extended season AND the internationals...no mention of that by the bastion of Sydney rugby....
 
F

Fushitsusha

Guest
It isn't just Western Australians who have a beef with the NSRU.

ACT rugby fans have had to put up with their **** for even longer.

Having the Canberra team cut from the NSW club competition on two occasions due to some jealousy over Canberra's strong player development and talent stocks was very petty. That jealousy was also apparent in the many media beat ups that have been aimed at the Brumbies over the years. If it wasn't for the Force I'm sure there'd be more aimed our way now.

I find it interesting that the NSW teams lost the most money in the ARC, especially when they had less travel costs over the other sides. I think it's obvious that the NSRU wanted this competition to fail.

And despite the money that had apparently been lost by the ARU, why was Lote Tuqiri given such a lucrative contract? They should've let him go back to league. He is no good to Australian rugby on or off the field.
 
S

sanzar

Guest
<div class='quotemain'>
What's your beef with NSW BLR? It seems like there's always some pot shot you've gotta take...

A number Qld clubs were pushing for the abolision of the ARC as well you know.

The people who oppose it are a very small minority who belong to the old guard of club rugby.
[/b]
When you support a club that is constantly under siege from NSW media and gets a particular outlet throw out allegations left and right without apologising for those which were blatantly incorrect I am sure you will be a bit offensive about it, many Force fans which have followed it will feel the same, plus it's part of Australian rugby that everyone outside of NSW doesn't like them, it just comes naturally. :D
[/b][/quote]

You make it sound like the Herald is out to get the force or something... and I honestly don't get what you're on about. I read the herald almost everyday and can't recall any one instance of "allegations" against the force, let alone the continuous stream you seem to be insinuating. In fact one of their main rugby commentators, Spiro Zavos, is usually very complementary of the Force and their style of play and has been bagging the Tahs. Of course you may be referring to the Daily Telegraph, but I don't count that as a real paper and personally I think anyone who reads that or any Murdoch press needs a good smack in the teeth.



As I said in the post, I was being general, the thing is though that the old guard of club rugby is the one with all the power in NSW...who in turn have all the power in the ARU...see where I am going with this?

[/b]

Last time I checked they had devided up the vote for major decisions within the ARU evenly between the states to promote development nation wide and to ensure the interests of emerging states would be protected. True, some NSW and QLD power brokers weren't very happy, but that was seen as the best way forward by the majority and so that's what happend. In any case I can see why they are looking for a money spinner given their current situation. O'Neil was very successful in creating the A-League national competition for soccer because he was able to schedule it in the summer away from both the AFL and the NRL. The ARC on the other hand didn't have this luxery and ended up making an already fragile financial situation worse (some good ideas, but ultimately a knockout competition wasn't the way to go). Given that rugby is in a weak position it can't afford to gamble it's finances until it's strengthened its position, and I personally think that a national comp is still part of the agenda.



On a side note it is funny that SMH released a story saying that the Australian teams all support this new idea, yet didn't mention the Force at all and in todays West Australian there was a piece talking to Cam Shepherd and he said that he thought it was a bad idea as he thought that players would suffer burnout with the extended season AND the internationals...no mention of that by the bastion of Sydney rugby.... [/b]

Yes, how dare the Herald not interview every single player individually and get their opinions on a matter that is barely a week old :rolleyes: . You know that newspapers come out every day right? These are sports articles, and if there seems to be a general consensus on something they'll say that... it's not like they're writing a thesis.

In the end it just sounds to me like you've got this huge chip on your shoulder because of a few silly articles that you have mistakenly taken to mean that we'll out to get the Force, but if you actually came to NSW with that attitude most people wouldn't even know what you're talking about...



It isn't just Western Australians who have a beef with the NSRU.

ACT rugby fans have had to put up with their **** for even longer.

I find it interesting that the NSW teams lost the most money in the ARC, especially when they had less travel costs over the other sides. I think it's obvious that the NSRU wanted this competition to fail.
[/b]

Yes, it's all a big conspiracy Fshitsusha :rolleyes: . Most people in NSW were for the ARC (hard though that may be for you to accept), but NSW and Sydney in particular is the most conjested sporting landscape by far in Australia and it's not easy to just throw a new competition in here and expect it to be fine... it was just simply a competition problem - too many products and not enough fans for them all to be run away successes.

Of course that explanation isn't as interesting for paranoid interstate papers as "ZOMG!!! THE BIG NSW CORRUPTOR RAY DESTROYED THE COMPETION"...
 
J

Juggernaut

Guest
I also think his suggestion that we make the UK tour games 'mid week' affairs, was a swipe at the home unions for sending under strength teams all the time. Sp therefore he's almost threatening to make them into non-events completely unless they don't start treating them more seriously and send their best teams. [/b]

Hahaha...that was brilliant of JON, I'll give him that.

Maybe if this expansion does go ahead (No, I'm not agreeing to the idea) we should also send our second teams on EOYT. Maybe send the Maoris or NZ Div XV in place of the ABs...coz they'll be fresh from playing the NPC and wont suffer any burnout.
 
B

BLR

Guest
sanzar, it was the Sydney Morning Herald, every single Force fan is aware of the crap that they spun over the off season. They would re-write the same article every day with different wording yet the same facts, basically to continue to keep it top of the news. They made up the story of Giteau going to ACT to try to join the Brumbies again, and now that Giteau hasn't signed on the dotted line yet they take this as confirmation that they were true all along, despite the fact Giteau has flatly denied it. The whole forcing one of the executives to hand over his credit card, despite the fact the same guy went directly the the SMH, despite having been given a second chance to work at the Force when he quit and went to another job, and basically spilled his guts on a whole bunch of Force issues, this guy is seen to be an authority despite there being no evidence. There would be a story on how the Force are looking forward to the start of the season, usually it would end there but instead SMH go on a half page rant detailing the various problems and unproven allegations they have levelled at the Force, every single article...

Spiro Zavos I have alot of respect of for a journalist, he doesn't get into all the mudslinging his fellow reporters get into, he actually writes about the game and not turn it into a gossip column...

SMH interviewed the other three franchises about the issue but didn't even attempt to ask the Force anything, and I doubt they will do so, as they are essentially a trash newspaper when it comes to rugby, hell, they sponsor the Waratahs, isn't journalism about telling the news in a fair and equal way?

As for the ARC, it should have at least been advertised in a meaningful way, they didn't even try, just waiting for it to finish so they could scuttle it, now Grumbles Growden reports they want to create a competition for the best of the Eastern clubs to compete in....real good for the development of rugby in Australia right?
 
F

Fushitsusha

Guest
Last time I checked they had devided up the vote for major decisions within the ARU evenly between the states to promote development nation wide and to ensure the interests of emerging states would be protected.
[/b]

Surely you're not that naieve?

On another note - the ACTRU has been repeatedly screwed out of money by the ARU that's ended up going towards the QRU and NSWRU.
 
S

sanzar

Guest
sanzar, it was the Sydney Morning Herald, every single Force fan is aware of the crap that they spun over the off season. They would re-write the same article every day with different wording yet the same facts, basically to continue to keep it top of the news. They made up the story of Giteau going to ACT to try to join the Brumbies again, and now that Giteau hasn't signed on the dotted line yet they take this as confirmation that they were true all along, despite the fact Giteau has flatly denied it. The whole forcing one of the executives to hand over his credit card, despite the fact the same guy went directly the the SMH, despite having been given a second chance to work at the Force when he quit and went to another job, and basically spilled his guts on a whole bunch of Force issues, this guy is seen to be an authority despite there being no evidence. There would be a story on how the Force are looking forward to the start of the season, usually it would end there but instead SMH go on a half page rant detailing the various problems and unproven allegations they have levelled at the Force, every single article...
[/b]

Yeah I read those stories on Giteau too mate, and this is exactly what I'm talking about. The Herald print some article about Giteau keeping his options open after his contract runs and possibly going back to the ACT Brumbies, yet some how this qualifies as a 'huge eastern media conspiracy to steal Giteau'?!?! I mean for F#CK sake! You lot just need to bloody relax! This is how sports columns work in the off season! Heresay and conjecture is what gets printed when there's little to no real sports news. And it's idiots in the interstate press who get all upset about it and then fly off the handle that keeps it going... no one in Sydney could give a flying f*** if Giteau was going back to camberra, cause we'll still be playing against him!

SMH interviewed the other three franchises about the issue but didn't even attempt to ask the Force anything, and I doubt they will do so, as they are essentially a trash newspaper when it comes to rugby, hell, they sponsor the Waratahs, isn't journalism about telling the news in a fair and equal way? [/b]

You obviously haven't been following the development of journalism throughout the 20th century... Papers and the media in general have almost completely ceased performing the function of the fourth estate. But that's a discussion for another forum.

As for the Herald sponsoring the Tahs... well just have a look at who sponsors the others teams and also maybe check out the NRL and AFL while you're at it (newslimited OWN the broncos and the storm for example) and you'll see that as far as conflicts of interest go it's not exactly unprecedented. In any case it's a footy team and not a political party, so no need to get your knickers in a twist.
 
E

esoj

Guest
didn't the arc lose something like 4.5 mill and the losses weren't expected to be much better in the following years.Australia need to sort out their domestic side first before dreaming of playing super14 in japan.

Tew agreed that Japan held enormous commercial opportunities to expand the game, but stronger rugby nations in the Pacific Islands and Argentina also needed to be considered.

interesting comment from Tew (NZRFU) and that would seem the more logical path for expansion too. whether it happens or not is another thing and it is unlikely we will see any expansion until the latest tv deal runs out
 
B

BLR

Guest
didn't the arc lose something like 4.5 mill and the losses weren't expected to be much better in the following years.Australia need to sort out their domestic side first before dreaming of playing super14 in japan.
[/b]
The thing was they were playing alot of the games over East is pretty big stadiums, advertising was bad, I mean, over here alot of people didn't even know it was on...the losses could have been cut down significantly if they cut out a couple of the teams, played in smaller stadiums, started a decent marketing campaign and tried to get media rights to the stage where the games weren't on ABC and all the games were shown....the competition was given no chance to survive...

But us over West kept our end of the bargain up, next time we should be in charge of the provincial competitions :D
 
F

Fushitsusha

Guest
<div class='quotemain'>
didn't the arc lose something like 4.5 mill and the losses weren't expected to be much better in the following years.Australia need to sort out their domestic side first before dreaming of playing super14 in japan.
[/b]
The thing was they were playing alot of the games over East is pretty big stadiums, advertising was bad, I mean, over here alot of people didn't even know it was on...the losses could have been cut down significantly if they cut out a couple of the teams, played in smaller stadiums, started a decent marketing campaign and tried to get media rights to the stage where the games weren't on ABC and all the games were shown....the competition was given no chance to survive...

But us over West kept our end of the bargain up, next time we should be in charge of the provincial competitions :D
[/b][/quote]

The Vikings also came out without a loss...

I think it's time that the power shifted away from the corpses in Queensland and NSW and to the two rugby powers in Australia - Canberra and Perth :cheers:
 
P

Prestwick

Guest
What would an English rugby fan have against O'Neil :blink: ...

As I said above, I think O'Neil is just posturing in all honesty and probably only aiming to get a small fraction of what he's put forward.

As for Japan, well I think they'd be happy to get anything really because it would give them continued exposure to top level rugby.
[/b]

SANZAR, all O'Neil does is just posturing. He doesn't actually do anything else than be a drama-whore retard whose forays always backfire.

...a bit like Francis Baron actually...are the two related at all?!
 
C

Canadian_Rugger

Guest
From a North American perspective I think O'Neill has a point to his madness... The fact is the southern hemisphere is already struggling under the weight of rich northern hemisphere clubs with big pockets to burn signing up all southern hemisphere talent. Just yesterday the Guinness Premiership announced the salary caps of the teams in the league would increase by 1 million pounds so each club could sign up to 3 marquee players to their rosters. The French leagues don't even have a salary cap and with teams like Tolouse, Stade Francais, Toulon, run by multi millionaires with deep pockets to burn southern hemisphere rugby will increasingly be drained of its playing resources. To secure this you need money too burn, the SH does not have this currently in its system. The whole competition is being underwritten by Newscorp and this will eventually fail as the television market in the SH is too small.



Longterm what is going to need to happen is the league is going to have to alter its structure if it is to continue to be successful. This means opening up the teams to franchising and private ownership, looking at exploiting new markets, Japan, Hong Kong, Argentina (once they get their act together). Increasing the number of games played. Personally I'd like to see an 18 round tournament with playoffs styled after the NFL.



Put franchised teams in



South Africa

Bloemfonteinhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloemfontein

Johannesburg

Cape Town

Durban

Pretoria



New Zealand

Auckland

Hamilton

Wellington

Christchurch

Dunedin



Australia

Melbourne

Sydney

Brisbane

Canberra

Perth



Japan

Tokyo

Osaka

Yokohama

Hong Kong

f***uoka



Argentina

Mer Del Plata

Cordoba

Tucuman

Buenos Aires 1

Buenos Aires 2





I also think players should be able to move around freely too whatever team they want... imagine Dan Carter playing in Japan for Toyota Rugby the marketability would increase so much. Now right now none of this will work because of the very unflexible structures of certain national unions.



None of this will ever happen offcourse but from a business standpoint of view it looks a lot more attractive then the current setup
 
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