Georgia and Romania to participate in an 6N plus 2 tournament.

[amz]

This was posted by Georgian Rugby Union today. Little is known about, it could be 6N U20 or a different tournament:

https://twitter.com/GeorgianRugby/status/884774665218084864

Does anybody have more information?

 

[die_mole]

awesome

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

An excellent opportunity. If you can remotely compete at that level then it further promotes the argument for expansion of the 6N proper. Georgias credible performances at the World U20 obviously didn't go unnoticed.

 

[Osezno]

The full letter has been published by Georgian Rugby Union

 

[Car]

Sounds great! If they do well, it will make it easier for them to argue for the Six Nations to be opened up to them.

 

[Tautahi]

Great news both unions are getting the recognition they desreve. Let's hope this is the beginning of something bigger.

 

[Which Tyler]

Excellent news - poresumably taking the place of the 6N U20 - though that might be up in the air if they're not sure if this would be U19 or U20 yet.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I like the sound of this for U20 but to change the 6N to an 8N would not be a good idea, it simply wouldn't fit in the current calendar, it would essentially make the tournament last 10 weeks and I fear it would simply create 3 opportunities for the top teams to play "who can beat the wooden spoon contenders by the most".

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

The letter is a bit confusing... it doesnt really suggest that there will be more than 6 teams involved at any one point... any news on structure?

 

[The Jones Boy]

Whatever it is I like the sound of it.
We need to see more of the tier 2 teams getting a look in.
It will help them understand the level they need to try to attain if they want to climb into the top tier and it will help the exposure of the sport in their home nations.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Whatever it is I like the sound of it.
We need to see more of the tier 2 teams getting a look in.
It will help them understand the level they need to try to attain if they want to climb into the top tier and it will help the exposure of the sport in their home nations.

That's all nice in theory, in practice just look at Italy. We keep hearing how they improve and yet their latest results show they are being thrashed by margins just as big as ever. Their golden era was a few years ago and even then they were wooden spoon contenders every single year. There is no evidence that being part of the 6N has helped Italy grow at all and I don't think Romania or Georgia will grow either until the sport expands domestically. Continuously losing in international games doesn't help the sport grow. As I said earlier, it will now make it 3 games where the ***le contenders just try to annihilate the wooden spooners by as much as possible.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Well thats a pessimistic outlook me old mucker.
Ask the players if they want to be in it or not and I dare you to find one of them that says 'Not.'
Rugby is meant to be hard.
The deal is, bring in more of the little teams and they will either leap frog Italy or Italy will lift their game and climb a notch in quality.
Either way, they will have some right royal stouches against each other as they try to avoid the wooden spoon.

If it's not working, drop Italy into the second tier and make them play home and away, and then do the same for the 6 Nations, home and away and make a proper competition out of it.
The problems of the world solved in two erudite paragraphs.
Lovely old job.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well thats a pessimistic outlook me old mucker.
Ask the players if they want to be in it or not and I dare you to find one of them that says 'Not.'
Rugby is meant to be hard.
The deal is, bring in more of the little teams and they will either leap frog Italy or Italy will lift their game and climb a notch in quality.
Either way, they will have some right royal stouches against each other as they try to avoid the wooden spoon.

If it's not working, drop Italy into the second tier and make them play home and away, and then do the same for the 6 Nations, home and away and make a proper competition out of it.
The problems of the world solved in two erudite paragraphs.
Lovely old job.

Ask a schoolboy if he would like to run in the olympics and he'd probably give you the same answer, that doesn't mean it is a good idea. If you're going to accept that the what would then be 8N would essentially be a 2 tier tournament with 3/4 teams fighting out for the wooden spoon and 3/4 for the championship with little to no overlap between the 2 then what is the point of having them together? Split them apart. Italy have had years to sort themselves out and evidence shows they moved forwards a little but are now sliding back at a rate of knots. Regular 50 point thrashings are the norm, just as they were when they started. In no year have the won more games than they have lost, in no year have the had a positive points difference and even when they bamboozle England with some off the wall tactic, they still end up being annihilated.

 

[amz]

[...] I don't think Romania or Georgia will grow either until the sport expands domestically. Continuously losing in international games doesn't help the sport grow. As I said earlier, it will now make it 3 games where the ***le contenders just try to annihilate the wooden spooners by as much as possible.

You are not probably aware that Romania have a fully professional league since 2011 if I remember well and last year a 7th team was added and there are prospects to add an 8th team so certainly the game is growing domestically.

Georgia also is doing efforts to rely on more sources of players than those who go to France and recently organized an U20 WC where they did pretty well with most players from local clubs.

It is true that both new teams can get a heavy beating at some point but as I understand it is a development competition and I don't see how you do expect minnows to grow if not exposed to better competition. And btw, Romania U19 beat Scotland U19 20-10 in 2014 so I don't think we'll see margins bigger than what we see in 6N U20.

Finally, I don't get your argument with calendar at U20 level, they're not fully professional and surely academy sides can cope without one two players who are called up to national U20 team.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

You are not probably aware that Romania have a fully professional league since 2011 if I remember well and last year a 7th team was added and there are prospects to add an 8th team so certainly the game is growing domestically.

Georgia also is doing efforts to rely on more sources of players than those who go to France and recently organized an U20 WC where they did pretty well with most players from local clubs.

It is true that both new teams can get a heavy beating at some point but as I understand it is a development competition and I don't see how you do expect minnows to grow if not exposed to better competition. And btw, Romania U19 beat Scotland U19 20-10 in 2014 so I don't think we'll see margins bigger than what we see in 6N U20.

Finally, I don't get your argument with calendar at U20 level, they're not fully professional and surely academy sides can cope without one two players who are called up to national U20 team.

Getting slaughtered repeatedly doesn't help the game grow. We keep hearing exposure will help the teams develop but where is there any evidence of this? Italy were the test case and they failed miserably to develop, if anything the constant thrashings at international and club level killed the game in Italy as fans got tired of watching their sides get beaten. How many fans do you think will tune in if Georgia and Romania go the same way? I think both countries need to show a solid domestic game that can survive by itself and then look more at internationals.

U20's can fit an expanded 6N because they have fewer games and much more free time. The seniors in England already play more rugby than any other country in the world and now we want to add on an extra 2 games? They will also be away from their clubs for even longer.

 

[amz]

Who said anything about seniors? It is a thread about U20 so leave that aside.

About Italy, they clearly are better than when joined, Romania used to beat them last time in 2004 and nowdays they are too good. It is their system and Union that is

Evidence about getting better with better exposure can be found watching Argentina after they joined The Championship, Japan's 2015 WC after being exposed constantly to T1 matches and T1 coaching, all Pacific sides who regularly play T1 and even if they lack cohesion they are at a certain level because they are accustomed with that level.

Georgia U20 is on par with big nations and is growing constantly for some years, Romania's SL is the only fully professional one from T2 (except Japan) and didn't shrink but grew constantly even if not in a spectacular way. Salaries are decent and many players prefer to stay home than head to Federale 1 or Elite, English second tier or even Pro D2.

Your only argument is Italy and there are many other things to be considered such as the dire way FIR dealt with local championship and the lack of foresight with changing national team generations. With all that, they beat SA this year, isn't it? Or that doesn't count ?

So there are plenty of signs local rugby is growing in Georgia and Romania therefore even a U20 8N (which won't happen) would be fine

Believe me, domestic game resisted pretty well without any International match, probably you are also not aware that Romania featured in all RWCs since 1987 and we didn't played Tier 1 opposition since 2006 (except RWCs). So you're argument with looking too much for international T1 games is based on ignorance and nothing else.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

At senior level Italy defeated SA last year, nearly won in Australia this year and had a competitive scoreline in nearly every 6N game at half time. This is despite every other 6N side (bar France) having arguably improved immeasurably when compared to 5-10 years ago.

Italy are massively underperforming but they get bigger home crowds than some in the Southern Hemisphere and the mismanagement of one union is not an argument to lift up the drawbridge to neighbouring countries.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I forgot this was limited to U20, I have no problem with it at U20 level. I've said it before but I feel 2 tier 8 nations with a promotion/relegation would be a better setup. Romania and Georgia still have access to the lower 6N teams and, if they prove they can beat them, will have a shot at the better teams. They won't have to face thrashings whilst still playing superior quality opposition.

Also no, the odd win is not a valid indicator. England have managed the odd win against NZ, that really is not valid grounds to say we are on par with them or even close, it just means we aren't so **** we can never beat them. Bearing in mind as well that was perhaps the worst SA team in history, losing to Japan, Italy, England (first time in 10 years), Wales (only 2 times since 1999)...

 

[The Jones Boy]

Ask a schoolboy if he would like to run in the olympics and he'd probably give you the same answer, that doesn't mean it is a good idea. If you're going to accept that the what would then be 8N would essentially be a 2 tier tournament with 3/4 teams fighting out for the wooden spoon and 3/4 for the championship with little to no overlap between the 2 then what is the point of having them together? Split them apart. Italy have had years to sort themselves out and evidence shows they moved forwards a little but are now sliding back at a rate of knots. Regular 50 point thrashings are the norm, just as they were when they started. In no year have the won more games than they have lost, in no year have the had a positive points difference and even when they bamboozle England with some off the wall tactic, they still end up being annihilated.

They beat France on occasion, and Scotland with more regularity.
Would you rather they were kicked out ?

I would rather see more money poured into developing the rugby in schools particularly in the north and work escalated to gain sponsorship to support the development of the player base. You can't build a long term plan without the players coming through.

 

[FrenchFan]

It's great news. But they should extend it to senior level.

It is high time to introduce promotion-relegation into the 6N. World Rugby are preventing the development of Georgia and Romania by not doing it. How do they justify that?
Italy has not lived up to his early promise and France keep sliding. They could very well be out of the Top 10 by next year.

Georgia (12) are currently better ranked than Italy (14). If the argument is to keep the tournament to six nations and not have 8 teams then promotion-relegation is the answer. Currently the system doesn't allow the development of either Italy, Georgia and Romania.