Hillsborough Disaster

[Gay-Guy]

...I remember when this happened 20 years ago...didn't really understand back then the depth of this tragedy till now...saw shorts of the drama/doco they made about it featuring those three families...really felt for that dad losing his two girls at the stadium...gee there must be so many sad stories to be told.

To all the families of the victims and Liverpool supporters...respect from another fan of another team of another sport in another country. YNWA even here in NZ.

 

[Prestwick]

On the BBC theres a rather harrowing photo slideshow using photographs on the day mixed in with BBC Radio covering the FA Cup semi final on the day.

Half of my family are from Liverpool and although most of them are from the Everton area and are staunch fans of the club of the same name, the aftermath of Hillsborough had a kind of "an attack on one is an attack on all" effect, especially with that headline by Murdoch's gutter press came out.

This was a disaster waiting to happen and while we all know that properly managed terraces are awesome and perfectly safe, the cattle pens that existed at many Football stadia back then were death traps.

Justice for the 96!

 

[Radman]

Sad time indeed, the memories of TV and newspaper clips from the time it happened of victims still linger in my memory vividly.

The anger is still very strong in those families and fans affected by this tragedy with most still calling for justice.

 

[Bullitt]

I was in Liverpool with work yesterday... At 3pm when they had the silence. The extent that everyone was feeling it was clearly still strong, the mood in the place was haunting.

 

[Fa'atau82]

I'm being serious here.. but what actually happened? I know about Hillsborough, but i'm a little confused as how 96 people died.. i mean i know how they probably died, but how would this happen?

As far as i understand, the fans were standing (terracing in those days) and there was a barrier to stop them getting onto the pitch. Then, for some reason fans were let into a section of the stadium that was full. I take it most of the people that died, died of being 'stampeded' or squashed as they could not escape as they as were 'caged' in.

I can't understand how the fans coming in couldn't see it was already full, and if so why did they keep pushing up.. i mean there must have been some indication it was getting overcrowded?

I see that it was a huge tragedy, and that obviously we now have all-seater stadiums to prevent this, but who do you blame in this case? The Police.. who would have let the fans in, or the fans who came in who could see a crowd in front of them, but still continued to squash themselves in? It's just lacking any kind of common sense all over really.

I'm not ignorant, it was when i was quite young and not into football and i'm just speaking about what i have seen the news tell about the event. Exactly how do you deal 'justice for the 96' in this case?

IMHO the blame lays with the last entering supporters who could see what was happening when they came in their droves into the already crowded terraces, but it appears there was no real police presence to divert them anyway.. i'm not clear if it was just them not thinking or whether they just had no where else to go.. i mean, what about the exit? I know it happened fast, but i can't see how the new fans entering couldn't see it was dangerously overcrowded.

The police should never have let them in in the beginning and the waves after that, and the actual idea of ever having people blocked-in, so to speak is a disaster waiting to happen. This had to happen, and it did and it's a horrific event in sporting history.

But, who do you blame after 20 years.. you can blame the fans who actually made the crush, or the police who failed to organise the spectators in the first place. It's too little, too late to blame anyone now. The fact that the entire stadia attitude was changed in wake of this is some justice, as hopefully it'd never happen again.

 

[Sir Speedy]

I saw that documentary aswell. It was depressing...

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Apr 16 2009, 06:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'm being serious here.. but what actually happened? I know about Hillsborough, but i'm a little confused as how 96 people died.. i mean i know how they probably died, but how would this happen?

As far as i understand, the fans were standing (terracing in those days) and there was a barrier to stop them getting onto the pitch. Then, for some reason fans were let into a section of the stadium that was full. I take it most of the people that died, died of being 'stampeded' or squashed as they could not escape as they as were 'caged' in.

I can't understand how the fans coming in couldn't see it was already full, and if so why did they keep pushing up.. i mean there must have been some indication it was getting overcrowded?

I see that it was a huge tragedy, and that obviously we now have all-seater stadiums to prevent this, but who do you blame in this case? The Police.. who would have let the fans in, or the fans who came in who could see a crowd in front of them, but still continued to squash themselves in? It's just lacking any kind of common sense all over really.

I'm not ignorant, it was when i was quite young and not into football and i'm just speaking about what i have seen the news tell about the event. Exactly how do you deal 'justice for the 96' in this case?

IMHO the blame lays with the last entering supporters who could see what was happening when they came in their droves into the already crowded terraces, but it appears there was no real police presence to divert them anyway.. i'm not clear if it was just them not thinking or whether they just had no where else to go.. i mean, what about the exit? I know it happened fast, but i can't see how the new fans entering couldn't see it was dangerously overcrowded.

The police should never have let them in in the beginning and the waves after that, and the actual idea of ever having people blocked-in, so to speak is a disaster waiting to happen. This had to happen, and it did and it's a horrific event in sporting history.

But, who do you blame after 20 years.. you can blame the fans who actually made the crush, or the police who failed to organise the spectators in the first place. It's too little, too late to blame anyone now. The fact that the entire stadia attitude was changed in wake of this is some justice, as hopefully it'd never happen again.[/b]

There was a series of events that led to the crush.

First of all, there are rumours that Sheffield Wednesday oversold tickets for the game in that stand. These haven't been verified however.

Next, because of the limited number of turnstiles at the entrance to the stand the flow of people getting in was slow and the number of people waiting to get up built up and up. Police were directing other fans to queue to get in via that entrance even if they had tickets for other stands! Inside the amount of staff there to direct fans to their seats was minimal if absent which meant that fans went straight on and into the first pens that they saw which were the first two directly ahead rather than be spread evenly. Also, there was no indication of what was happening up ahead as to get to the terraces, everyone has to go through this tunnel first.

As the game kicked off, fans outside started to push and jostle to get into the ground which worried police (again minimal by the looks of it) outside trying to control the situation. As more and more people tried to get to the turnstiles, they prevented fans who had been incorrectly directed to the Leppings Lane stand from getting out and to the correct entrances elsewhere around the stadium. The decision was then taken to open a side gate to allow people out and ease the pressure that way.

When the gate opened, everyone instantly saw the new opening thinking that they were opening more gates to let fans in to watch the game and the crowd surged forward and into the tunnel and directly into the two pens straight ahead.

The problem is that logic and common sense tends to get lost in the midst of panic and excitement and again, it wasn't that apparent that something was going very badly wrong at the time because as I said, you had to access the stand via a tunnel first.

Hillsborough is why stadiums across the UK have entire legions of ground staff in flourescant jackets standing everywhere from the entrances to the stands themselves. They're there to control the flow of fans and make sure they get to their assigned area as quickly and safely as possible. Simply put, if there were sufficient levels of staff performing the same job on that fateful day then the tradegy may have been avoided because fans would have been evenly distributed across the stand rather than into just two pens.

When the crush started to happen, people tried to escape by climbing up and over the barriers seperating fans from the pitch and were immediately met by police thinking that they were hooligans bent on causing trouble by invading the pitch. As the authorities started to realise what was happening, the level of response was still awful. A single ambulance was allowed into the stadium. Of the 96 who died that day only 16 ever made it to Hospital.

The level of blame in my mind rests overwhelmingly with Sheffield Wednesday and the West Yorkshire Constabulary both of whom were woefully inequipped to handle any such crisis and had an indifferent attitude towards the welfare of fans.

 

[Gavin]

I don't know much about the Hillsborough Disaster but I thought part of the stadium collasped for some reason. Didn't realise it was just a mad crush. It could so easily have been prevented - sad story.

 

[An Tarbh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gavin @ Apr 16 2009, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I don't know much about the Hillsborough Disaster but I thought part of the stadium collasped for some reason. Didn't realise it was just a mad crush. It could so easily have been prevented - sad story.[/b]

no that was Heysel 4 years previous.

 

[Fa'atau82]

Thanks Prestwick. You can't really punish anyone now though, can you? The management of the Police from that time and Sheffield Wednesday FC are probably long gone by now. I think what makes this worse is the fact that is was totally avoidable, and to lose someone to something like this is probably worse to try and live with.

What is justice, in this case?

I think justice has been done to a certain extent with the stadium developments i mentioned earlier.. it took the events of Heysel and Hillsborough to highlight the lacking of safety in stadiums, but i think perhaps in this case 'justice' is a loose term. I think after 20 years nothing has really changed, nobody who lost someone in that stadium still has the closure they need.. but it's far too late now to do anything.

 

[MunsterMan]

You can punish The Sun, the dirty f***ing rag.

YNWA - Justice for the 96

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Apr 16 2009, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Thanks Prestwick. You can't really punish anyone now though, can you? The management of the Police from that time and Sheffield Wednesday FC are probably long gone by now. I think what makes this worse is the fact that is was totally avoidable, and to lose someone to something like this is probably worse to try and live with.

What is justice, in this case?

I think justice has been done to a certain extent with the stadium developments i mentioned earlier.. it took the events of Heysel and Hillsborough to highlight the lacking of safety in stadiums, but i think perhaps in this case 'justice' is a loose term. I think after 20 years nothing has really changed, nobody who lost someone in that stadium still has the closure they need.. but it's far too late now to do anything.[/b]

They did try to bring civil prosecutions against the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Constabulary and Sheffield Wednesday at the time but that didn't quite work out.

Justice in this case would be a full public enquiry and a full release of all the evidence which is still being withheld. The latter is going to be done.

Also, shopping the utter ****** known as Kelvin Mackenzie to the nearest lynch mob in Liverpool would count as justice.

 

[glosbigboy]

There is no doubting the authorities dreadfull handling of the situation and the cover up that followed. Liverpool also has to look at itself at that time and realise that they too played a big part in the tragedy. This followed the Heysel stadium disaster and there are two common factors,"Liverpool fans". Please dont think Im laying the blame at their feet but this was the eighties where hooliganism was at its peak. Liverpool were well known throughout Europe as having a group of fans who would always travel without tickets and try to get in which ever way they could. Unfortunatly Hillsborough ended in such horror that football had to change the way it policed and catered for fans and that is the only positive that has come from this.

 

[getofmeland]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (glosbigboy @ Apr 16 2009, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

There is no doubting the authorities dreadfull handling of the situation and the cover up that followed. Liverpool also has to look at itself at that time and realise that they too played a big part in the tragedy. This followed the Heysel stadium disaster and there are two common factors,"Liverpool fans". Please dont think Im laying the blame at their feet but this was the eighties where hooliganism was at its peak. Liverpool were well known throughout Europe as having a group of fans who would always travel without tickets and try to get in which ever way they could. Unfortunatly Hillsborough ended in such horror that football had to change the way it policed and catered for fans and that is the only positive that has come from this.[/b]

I wasn't gonna justify this with a reply, but feel I should for the football club, there was no problem with the fans at Hillsborough, the police took the decision to open an exit gate which allowed Liverpool fans to enter into the stadium, this was not a decision made by Liverpool fans, they were being told that was the way to get into the stadium. The Stadium had oversold the game which meant there were more tickets than actually allowed on the market, this is also not the Liverpool fans problem, this is down to bad organisation.

To come here and blame the Liverpool Fans for Hillsborough is a joke, there was no violence in the crowd, it falls down to poor handling of the game by the police and stadium officials. People often forget Liverpool played a semi final the year before Hillsborough at Hillsborough, this passed with no problems, the difference being a different Chief Constable in charge.

Heysel was an unfortunate event which also happend in our prime years, yes this was caused by Liverpool fans, but the facts are as follows:

"On May 29 1985, 39 football fans died when a wall collapsed at the Heysel stadium in Belgium. What should have been one of the greatest nights in the club's history turned into a nightmare. Instead of leaving Brussels having seen our team lift a fifth European Cup, Liverpool supporters travelled back to England having witnessed the deaths of 38 Italians and one Belgian.

Liverpool had objected to the choice of ground to stage the final well before the friendly banter outside the stadium began to turn nasty inside. Aside from the fact that the stadium appeared to be crumbling, Liverpool's main concern was that there was to be a neutral section of the ground set aside for football fans from Belgium. The club argued that only Liverpool and Juventus should be allocated tickets. Setting aside a neutral area would only lead to both sets of fans being able to buy tickets off Belgium touts thus creating a dangerous mixed area. As history has since proved, this neutral area was soon filled with Italian supporters.

As tempers became frayed inside the ground about an hour before kick off, both sets of fans baited each other through a segregating fence made from chicken wire. After a sustained period of missiles being thrown by both sets of supporters, some Liverpool fans charged at their Italian counterparts and, as chaos took over, Juventus fans fled only for a wall blocking their escape to collapse on top of them. Thirty-nine football supporters died where they fell."

The basics is the stadium wasn't set up right for the game that was going to be played. The chances are that if this had been any other club, the same would of happend.

 

[Prestwick]

The main reason why that gate was opened specifically was because one of the ground attendancts manning another gate on the opposite side refused to hand over the keys to the police. He saw exactly what was going down and didn't want any part in it. He didn't want to be responsible for a possible catastrophe and refused to open his gate.

 

[Meh]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Prestwick @ Apr 16 2009, 05:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Also, shopping the utter ****** known as Kelvin Mackenzie to the nearest lynch mob in Liverpool would count as justice.[/b]

This.

Justice for the 96! I went to Anfield to pay my tribute but I had to leave the day of the memorial sadly.

My Auntie's neighbour died at Hillsborough and my Uncle was at the game so I've always been very passionate about this. The service had me in tears at parts. I'm so proud of the work the people of Liverpool have done.

(By the way, I'm Welsh yes, but most my family moved to Liverpool for work before WW1 so I'm a 4th generation fan)

 

[Meh]

As for Heysel, a completely different story and something to very ashamed of.

When my Dad lived in London he did hear about neighbours of his (Chelsea fans) going to cause trouble. I reckon there is more truth in these stories than they'd admit but whatever the truth is people should pay tribute to those that die at all sporting disasters, no matter what the cause.

 

[glosbigboy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (getofmeland @ Apr 17 2009, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (glosbigboy @ Apr 16 2009, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no doubting the authorities dreadfull handling of the situation and the cover up that followed. Liverpool also has to look at itself at that time and realise that they too played a big part in the tragedy. This followed the Heysel stadium disaster and there are two common factors,"Liverpool fans". Please dont think Im laying the blame at their feet but this was the eighties where hooliganism was at its peak. Liverpool were well known throughout Europe as having a group of fans who would always travel without tickets and try to get in which ever way they could. Unfortunatly Hillsborough ended in such horror that football had to change the way it policed and catered for fans and that is the only positive that has come from this.[/b]

I wasn't gonna justify this with a reply, but feel I should for the football club, there was no problem with the fans at Hillsborough, the police took the decision to open an exit gate which allowed Liverpool fans to enter into the stadium, this was not a decision made by Liverpool fans, they were being told that was the way to get into the stadium. The Stadium had oversold the game which meant there were more tickets than actually allowed on the market, this is also not the Liverpool fans problem, this is down to bad organisation.

To come here and blame the Liverpool Fans for Hillsborough is a joke, there was no violence in the crowd, it falls down to poor handling of the game by the police and stadium officials. People often forget Liverpool played a semi final the year before Hillsborough at Hillsborough, this passed with no problems, the difference being a different Chief Constable in charge.

Heysel was an unfortunate event which also happend in our prime years, yes this was caused by Liverpool fans, but the facts are as follows:

"On May 29 1985, 39 football fans died when a wall collapsed at the Heysel stadium in Belgium. What should have been one of the greatest nights in the club's history turned into a nightmare. Instead of leaving Brussels having seen our team lift a fifth European Cup, Liverpool supporters travelled back to England having witnessed the deaths of 38 Italians and one Belgian.

Liverpool had objected to the choice of ground to stage the final well before the friendly banter outside the stadium began to turn nasty inside. Aside from the fact that the stadium appeared to be crumbling, Liverpool's main concern was that there was to be a neutral section of the ground set aside for football fans from Belgium. The club argued that only Liverpool and Juventus should be allocated tickets. Setting aside a neutral area would only lead to both sets of fans being able to buy tickets off Belgium touts thus creating a dangerous mixed area. As history has since proved, this neutral area was soon filled with Italian supporters.

As tempers became frayed inside the ground about an hour before kick off, both sets of fans baited each other through a segregating fence made from chicken wire. After a sustained period of missiles being thrown by both sets of supporters, some Liverpool fans charged at their Italian counterparts and, as chaos took over, Juventus fans fled only for a wall blocking their escape to collapse on top of them. Thirty-nine football supporters died where they fell."

The basics is the stadium wasn't set up right for the game that was going to be played. The chances are that if this had been any other club, the same would of happend.
[/b][/quote]
Hillsborough had played host to many semi-finals and big games prior to this so whats the difference with this one?
easy to now look back on things as if it was purely the police`s fault, the truth is Liverpool fans behavoir and their reputation were a major factor in the disaster.

 

[getofmeland]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (glosbigboy @ Apr 18 2009, 08:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (getofmeland @ Apr 17 2009, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (glosbigboy @ Apr 16 2009, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is no doubting the authorities dreadfull handling of the situation and the cover up that followed. Liverpool also has to look at itself at that time and realise that they too played a big part in the tragedy. This followed the Heysel stadium disaster and there are two common factors,"Liverpool fans". Please dont think Im laying the blame at their feet but this was the eighties where hooliganism was at its peak. Liverpool were well known throughout Europe as having a group of fans who would always travel without tickets and try to get in which ever way they could. Unfortunatly Hillsborough ended in such horror that football had to change the way it policed and catered for fans and that is the only positive that has come from this.[/b]

I wasn't gonna justify this with a reply, but feel I should for the football club, there was no problem with the fans at Hillsborough, the police took the decision to open an exit gate which allowed Liverpool fans to enter into the stadium, this was not a decision made by Liverpool fans, they were being told that was the way to get into the stadium. The Stadium had oversold the game which meant there were more tickets than actually allowed on the market, this is also not the Liverpool fans problem, this is down to bad organisation.

To come here and blame the Liverpool Fans for Hillsborough is a joke, there was no violence in the crowd, it falls down to poor handling of the game by the police and stadium officials. People often forget Liverpool played a semi final the year before Hillsborough at Hillsborough, this passed with no problems, the difference being a different Chief Constable in charge.

Heysel was an unfortunate event which also happend in our prime years, yes this was caused by Liverpool fans, but the facts are as follows:

"On May 29 1985, 39 football fans died when a wall collapsed at the Heysel stadium in Belgium. What should have been one of the greatest nights in the club's history turned into a nightmare. Instead of leaving Brussels having seen our team lift a fifth European Cup, Liverpool supporters travelled back to England having witnessed the deaths of 38 Italians and one Belgian.

Liverpool had objected to the choice of ground to stage the final well before the friendly banter outside the stadium began to turn nasty inside. Aside from the fact that the stadium appeared to be crumbling, Liverpool's main concern was that there was to be a neutral section of the ground set aside for football fans from Belgium. The club argued that only Liverpool and Juventus should be allocated tickets. Setting aside a neutral area would only lead to both sets of fans being able to buy tickets off Belgium touts thus creating a dangerous mixed area. As history has since proved, this neutral area was soon filled with Italian supporters.

As tempers became frayed inside the ground about an hour before kick off, both sets of fans baited each other through a segregating fence made from chicken wire. After a sustained period of missiles being thrown by both sets of supporters, some Liverpool fans charged at their Italian counterparts and, as chaos took over, Juventus fans fled only for a wall blocking their escape to collapse on top of them. Thirty-nine football supporters died where they fell."

The basics is the stadium wasn't set up right for the game that was going to be played. The chances are that if this had been any other club, the same would of happend.
[/b][/quote]
Hillsborough had played host to many semi-finals and big games prior to this so whats the difference with this one?
easy to now look back on things as if it was purely the police`s fault, the truth is Liverpool fans behavoir and their reputation were a major factor in the disaster.
[/b][/quote]

Christ you need to learn to read and get your facts right before you come on here blaming the Liverpool Fans... Don't comment on things you don't know, if your not willing to read the facts then try and enter a debate you nothing about.

Several people already have put the facts over, so I am not gonna do it again, take time and read them, the fans did not cause this problem, there was no violence in the lead up to this game, and the only violence shown was to the Police when Fans were trying to save theirselves and their mates, and the police would not open the gates to allow them on to the police, this includes the footage of the police pushing people back in the crowd.

So Glosbigboy, SHUT UP!!!

 

[MunsterMan]

I wasn't going to dignify your first post with a response but you keep spouting the shite. Are you ignorant or just a troll? Follow getofmeland's advice before posting again please!