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How would Centralised Contracts work in the AP?

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)

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What with Eddie Jones being now the bookies favourites, one of his points is England should have Centralised Contracts.

Wondering how in a competition that is getting more and more sugar daddies would this work?

Do England try to go 50/50 on certain players with Maybe regulation on amount of game time and maybe some influence of where they play or try to go all out 100% and have a say in who they play for etc?

Do they target current England stars or target the next gen more now? Will Players in France have to sign one?

It's a odd situation what with the volume of pro clubs and player bases it will be interesting to see what happens.

Will players who refuse a CC be at bigger disadvantage than those who do.

Whilst I love England I also love Leicester and I just don't like the idea of RFU potentially having a say where the likes of Cole, Youngs Manu etc should play for. (Although with Mauger and Murphy here Leicester is starting to look a much more promising place to play a more exciting brand of rugby)

Eddie better remember which club he had a brief stint with.
 
Eddie Jones hates clubs as an international coach and this is even more reason not to appoint him. He would never get what he wants. But his outspoken approach to media would lead to a load of complaints by him about it and would risk the relationship with the Premiership put under stress again, despite it being nicely sorted for the last 8 or so years.
 
Eddie Jones hates clubs as an international coach and this is even more reason not to appoint him. He would never get what he wants. But his outspoken approach to media would lead to a load of complaints by him about it and would risk the relationship with the Premiership put under stress again, despite it being nicely sorted for the last 8 or so years.

In South Africa he was referred to as "Eddie Moans" :D
 
Do England try to go 50/50 on certain players with Maybe regulation on amount of game time and maybe some influence of where they play or try to go all out 100% and have a say in who they play for etc?

Whilst I love England I also love Leicester and I just don't like the idea of RFU potentially having a say where the likes of Cole, Youngs Manu etc should play for. (Although with Mauger and Murphy here Leicester is starting to look a much more promising place to play a more exciting brand of rugby)

This doesn't happen in NZ.

While there is co-operation, the franchise coaches decide how best to use their resources

How to Ireland and Wales manage their CC systems
 
This doesn't happen in NZ.

While there is co-operation, the franchise coaches decide how best to use their resources

How to Ireland and Wales manage their CC systems

Roughly speaking, in Ireland, it's like this...

- Players under CC can only play so many minutes per block of games (usually 6 or so I think). How the province handles that is up to them. How many minutes depends on the player, their injury history etc.etc.

- Ireland's head coach can dictate when and where players play, but this is done judiciously. For example: Ulster have been told in the past to give Tom Court and Paddy Wallace games in their secondary position when it looked like they'd be needed there. Ulster have been told "Play Jared Payne at 13" when we've had another good full-back but this has been relaxed at moments of stress for the province; generally, Ulster have been allowed to play Henderson at blindside or lock as they see fit. Usually provinces are under obligation to ensure the best players get out for the best games (i.e. Europe) but if a province wants to throw an interprovincial due to bad timing and send the A team for a hammering, then that's allowed too.

- So far the IRFU haven't dictated which province players must play for at all, despite the absurd situation where Ulster have as many top Pro 12 centres as Leinster and Munster together, Leinster have Ireland's 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice tightheads, Leinster have two full back-rows of Irish internationals while Ulster play AIL back rows and so on. There's rumours Nucifora is looking to increase movement around the provinces but it seems pretty clear player consent must come first.

The big problem with central contracting in England, if selective, is that every it'd be quite quite uneven over 12 clubs.

I think you either have to give every single EQP a central contact giving the Union certain rights - which, incidentally, would allow the clubs to lower wage payments to those players, thus making foreigners more expensive and sort of doing Raggs' idea of a minimum cost for NEQP players - or create a stronger EPS agreement which gives the national team more control over the players. I'd be aiming for a set minimum period of time given over to skills training at every single club there. The RFU directly taking over payment of the best players? Very tricky to implement.
 
It'll definitely be more difficult to implement in England than anywhere else. Spread them evenly over the league and half your players aren't even playing in the Champions Cup, and you would have to force players to move away from homes and families. Concentrate them in a few teams and you're giving a very unfair advantage to the top teams which could ruin the Premiership as a competition.

The only thing I can think of is that whenever a player is centrally contracted, the part that the RFU pays for stays in the salary cap. I'm just worried that teams will see having internationals as more of a hindrance then, having to pay a full salary for a player that isn't there for half the year, and start offloading them for overseas players. The playoffs might help here. You can do well in the league with no internationals, but not having that quality when it gets to knockout stages is definitely giving away the advantage.

Realistically, we need regions to make it work properly.
 
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It'll definitely be more difficult to implement in England than anywhere else. Spread them evenly over the league and half your players aren't even playing in the Champions Cup, and you would have to force players to move away from homes and families. Concentrate them in a few teams and you're giving a very unfair advantage to the top teams which could ruin the Premiership as a competition.

The only thing I can think of is that whenever a player is centrally contracted, the part that the RFU pays for stays in the salary cap. I'm just worried that teams will see having internationals as more of a hindrance then, having to pay a full salary for a player that isn't there for half the year, and start offloading them for overseas players.

Realistically, we need regions to make it work properly.

There's literally zero chance of the ghastly idea of regions or whatever happening in English rugby. That would lead to a full out war with clubs and would end being so destructive.

However it won't stop Eddie Moans talking about it if he ever came to English rugby, would be a useful thing to blame whenever he failed. Remember the argument that led to Woodward's departure? Moans has similar ideas on wanting control of his team and would be a risk to the peace there has been since the EPS agreement in 2007.
 
Regions simply won't happen:
Far better would be to condense the premiership to 8 teams, increase the Champ to 14 (pseudo-ring-fence there if you must, but I'll never like it); Sell TV packages for both leagues together. 2 up, 2 down each year. Reduce play-offs to just being the final, with league points advantage converted into score-board advantage. Target 75% EQP as a senior squad. Introduce MSC requirements to the Champ - at the level of the worst at that stage, with pre-planned steps up every decade.
Big boys Euro cup gets the top 6 from the prem; little boys get the 2 newcomers, 2 out-goers and next best 2 from the champ. Preferably 2 blocks of 3 matches
LV= has the 22 English clubs + 10 invitationals (Rabo - Italians?); straight knock-out rugby, with first 3 rounds played home & away; cup, plate and bowl levels to ensure meaningful fixtures.
Shift from 22(+2); 6(+3); 4(+2) = 32-39 matches to 14(+1); 6(+3); 6(+3) = 26-33 matches per season.
Condense the quality, more competitive fixtures, more variety in teams faced, improve the 2nd tier, improve player welfare.
And yes, I know it means 3 fewer home gates, so it'll never, ever happen.


As for central contracts:
With the EPS we've already got pretty close to central contracts, it's just that the money goes to the clubs not the players (and the RFU must still be furious that PRL renaged and smoothed the payments). EPS already gives the England coach the right to determine a player's position (or to drop him from the EPS if he doesn't), to enforce rest periods, and further rest if the England medics believe it necessary.
To make it realistic, the January changes would probably have to be half-year additions rather than replacements, but I'm sure that's doable.

If you want dual contracts, then give those EPS payments direct to the players, and remove that amount of the salary from the cap (as appearance fees already are). Clubs lower in the league won't like it, as they like getting money for doing nothing at all, clubs with several EPS players will love it as it actually allows them to recruit cover as originally negotiated for.
 
Our clubs haven't won the top tier European trophy since 2007, and we have won the Six Nations once in the last 12 attempts since the 2003 World Cup. I'm not sure the current set-up is good for either club or country to be honest.
 
How do you reduce the comp to 8 teams?

Or do you do a ITM type situation.

Premiership
Bath
Exeter
Harlequins
Leicester
Northampton
Sale
Saracens

Championship
Bristol
Glous
London Irish
London Welsh
London Scottish
Rotherham
Newcastle Falcons
Wuss

With relegation and promotion.

Don't really like that TBH.
 
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TM - is that aimed at me?
Simples, you demote 4 teams from the prem, job done.
IMO the status quo is broken. Nothing that changes the status quo will ever be universally popular. My system requires turkeys to vote in favour of christmas (even though I can propose many arguments that it's potentially to their benefit as well); but it's the best I can see.
Better quality matches all round, better concentration of talent, better player welfare, more knock=out rugby, fewer international clashes.
The major loss is the loss of traditional fixtures - which happens anyway.

I think England can support 20-22 fully professional teams; so let's put a system in place oriented to that.
 
I think England can support 20-22 fully professional teams; so let's put a system in place oriented to that.

Really, that many? I look at the Championship are there are numerous clubs who can barely scrape together a thousand fans each week. That's not sustainable. I wouldn't be adverse at all to an ITM Cup format, with 18 teams and ring-fenced. Teams such as Mosely etc who don't make the cut can return to the semi-pro ranks, which in turn could be re-structured to perhaps feed into a regional-esque system? Scrap the LV and British & Irish Cup's and introduce an all-levels cup, similar to the FA Cup.
 
Yes. Improve the quality of the Champ, double the number of teams earning promotion; give them a proper TV deal and ***le sponsor, a bit more central money; RFU academy; more matches against bigger teams - then yes, I thin 20-22 clubs can be fully professional.


Dross vs dross and no real prospects isn't an easy sell, to crowds or advertisers, then latter especially so if they never appear on TV.
Introduce a TV deal (show the champ or you don't get the prem!), and you immediately increase advertising rates, and awareness amongst supporters.
Add in a home match against Munster, Scarlets or Leicester; with a chance at another if you can get the win (and possibly another in the bowl if you lose). Who would Bedford rather play, Munster A in the B&I cup, or Munster (shorn of internationals) in the new LV= cup?
Add in 4 home matches against current Prem sides as they drop down.

Jersey vs Nottingham may not sell out; but both should sell out their matches against the big boys. Suddenly going from 1-2 sell-outs per year to 6-7 really ought to help.

An all-levels cup is simply too dangerous in rugby; but a fully professional Champ side should be fine IMO.
 
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Do franchises maybe but the standard of prem has to improve. I agree on the FA cup thing that could actually give rugby more publicity and let's pro club see more home grown players that are missed because there are many.
 
We can talk about it but it will never happen unless the RFU stumps up some serious cash.

Anyone know how central contracts work in Cricket?
 
We can talk about it but it will never happen unless the RFU stumps up some serious cash.

Anyone know how central contracts work in Cricket?

In cricket it's turned into an international team into a year round club side, and seen the domestic game drown into nothing with little interest. Certain people want that to happen to rugby too.
 
How do we, in New Zealand, arrive at a single body having overall governance of the game?

How do we get some responsibility and accountability from individual teams for looking after the good of the game here?

There is a bit of a false perception in the NH about how NZ Rugby is structured. Many seem to think that the NZRU is some kind of corporate juggernaut that rules with an iron fist, answers to no-one, owns everything and maintains control over all aspects of NZ rugby, but this simply isn't so.

What I will do here is a give a reasonably brief explanation of how the NZ system works, so that you can pick the bones out of it and see if there is any facet of the way we do things here that might be applied in England;

Amateur Rugby
There are about 600 amateur rugby clubs in New Zealand. They are ALL completely amateur and run by volunteers. They are distributed around the country and are formally part of one of New Zealand's 26 Provinces.

The Governing Boards and the ownership of the game
The Clubs elect members to their Provincial Governing Body; the PGB, which in turn annually elects members to the New Zealand Rugby Board, the NZRB, a body that is charged with setting strategy and direction for New Zealand Rugby. Most importantly, this result in the fact that it is the 600 clubs who ultimately own the game in New Zealand. The NZRB is an entirely separate body from the NZRU (the executive branch) and while the NZRU President, Vice President and CEO may attend board meetings, they have no voting rights. Many of the decisions concerning New Zealand’s national teams, domestic competitions, financial management and rugby traditions can only be made by a vote of the NZRB, and they can, and sometimes do, overrule the NZRU Executive. One recent example was over the reduction of the National Provincial Championship from a 14 team to a 12 team competition. The NZRU wanted to do this this. the NZRB overruled them and told them to come up with a plan to keep all 14 teams in the competition. This issue was discussed extensively on this forum at the time.

The NZRU
The NZRU sets policy and maintains control of the running of Inter provincial competitions at all age groups. They also provide high level support for the development of the game. They provide direct funding to PGBs who in turn are responsible for the Provincial Teams, clubs, schools, juniors, girls and women and Maori teams. This support involves funding and grass roots development.

The Professional Game and player contracts
The NZRU owns a minimum of 51% of the shares in the Five Super Rugby Franchises. It contracts all professional players and controls most sources of revenue, TV Rights, commercial & image rights etc. The Super Rugby franchises keep all gate receipts and some commercial revenue and sponsorship. Players in NZ can have up to three contracts at any one time.

ALL pro players are contracted to the NZRU - members of the current All Blacks squad are paid directly by the NZRU
Super Rugby players are sub-contracted to their franchise - those players are paid by their franchise
ITM Cup players are sub-contracted to their Provincial Team - non-SR players are on a retainer from their Provincial Team

NOTE: ITM Cup players must be registered with one if the amateur clubs within the boundaries of their province. New players, i.e. not members of an existing ITM Cup team) can register at any time, but players wishing to transfer from one ITM Cup team to another must register with their new club by May 1st of the year they wish to compete for their new team

Who controls where the players play?

Ultimately, its the players. Neither the NZRU nor the NZRB have any control over who plays for which Club, Province or Super Rugby Franchise. The Franchises operate just like a club in any other sport, they try to lure players to play for them, negotiate sponsorship deals (over and above the national competition sponsor), they negotiate player sub-contracts with player agents, and have to meet all the criteria set down by the NZ Rugby Player's Association as regards employment laws etc.

The only limitations on this are

1. Overseas players; Franchises can only contract non-NZ eligible players (limit of 2 per team) with the approval of the NZRU, who will usually give that approval provided that the position in which the player is to play is not one which they consider that we have a shortage of test level talent. A good example of that would be the Highlanders, who had both Fumiaki Tanaka (Japan) and James Haskell (England) in their team in the same season. These restrictions do not apply to Provincial or Club teams.

2. Draft players: Franchises are limited to competition squads of 32, but before each SR season, each franchise "protects" what they consider as their top 28 players. Once named, those protected players are off-limits to other franchises until the end of the season. The remaining four are allowed to negotiate with other franchises to transfer in that coming season if they so choose (overseas players MUST be on the protected list).

3. Wider training squads
Franchises also have a "Wider Training Squad" (WTS), however, their use is limited to injury. Until two years ago, a player replaced from the WTS was out for the rest of the season, and the WTS player was promoted to the main squad for the rest of the season. Now, a player can be replaced with a WTS player (still for injury only) who can remain on the main squad until the replaced injured player recovers.

The All Blacks management works with the franchises to best manage the current All Blacks to the benefit of both the All Blacks and the player's franchise team. To this end, individual programmes are designed for each player as regards playing time, fitness training, injury treatment, recovery and prevention. The All Blacks team doctor and team physiotherapist are available to the medical staff of all franchises, as are their specialist coaches.

Summary
This system seems to work very well for us. Effectively, the NZRU sets policy and is for the most part free to run the game in New Zealand, but the NZRB is its "conscience"; they decide whether what the NZRU wants to do is good for NZ rugby as a whole, and how it would impact on the game right down to grass roots level. The NZRB has the final say.
 

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