International teams tiers

Discussion in 'Rugby World Cup 2015' started by Petrichor, Nov 2, 2015.

  1. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,722
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Tasman


    I was going to question that, but you're right (this is 2011 but it won't have changed much)

    [​IMG]


    In total playing numbers, you are about par with Italy. However, in Senior Male players (from which your playing squads are drawn) you are about par with Ireland and New Zealand.

    Looking at this chart, you have to wonder how on earth England don't utterly dominate the international game?
     
  2. Forum Ad Advertisement

  3. Tallshort

    Tallshort International

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    5,151
    Location:
    Coalville
    Country Flag:

    Poland

    Club or Nation:

    Leicester

    Its because we are crap
     
  4. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,449
    Location:
    Yurop
    Country Flag:

    Argentina

    Club or Nation:

    CASI

    Easy, it's not just about the quantity of players that you have, but the quality of the players in that group.
    The best athletes in NZ will statistically pick rugby, i'm guessing, 9 out of 10 times. That is not the case with several of the other countries. If a guy in England/Argentina/France (just to use 3 examples) had the skills to make it in both soccer or rugby, chances are he will pick soccer.

    I always use the same example. The US has more registered soccer players than Argentina. The problem is that the vast majority of those are people who couldn't make it into top tier US sports. They have a bigger group of second tier athletes.
     
  5. ENZED-88

    ENZED-88 Academy Player

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2014
    Messages:
    311
    Location:
    Sydney
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Auckland

    I guessing you haven't looked at our rugby league team, with athletes like roger tuivasa sheck, Shaun Johnson, jared waerea Hargreaves. The first two I doubt any of the ABs possess their athleticism.( my opinion) our league team also gave us incredible athletes like SBW.
     
  6. nzlizard

    nzlizard Bench Player

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2013
    Messages:
    942
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Chiefs

    Yeah agree with this completely, rugby is our national sport and most professional sport, followed by league & cricket, and then maybe a handful of other sports where people get played to play.

    Soccer is the national sport of most NH countries and then I imagine, ice hockey, basketball, rugby and other national sports compete for the remainder, obviously the sports change across the NH but the key thing rugby is not first choice for most places.
     
  7. james5000

    james5000 Bench Player

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    590
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Chiefs

    "Generalizations lead to fallacies" Your quote but true in this case
     
  8. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,449
    Location:
    Yurop
    Country Flag:

    Argentina

    Club or Nation:

    CASI

    I have and that is why i said 9 out of 10. I made a generalization, which I still believe is directionally correct, and you are cherry picking the exceptions. That is not the point.

    Rugby Union is the bigger sport in NZ. That is not the case in England, Argentina or France (to use the same examples).
     
  9. Tallshort

    Tallshort International

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    5,151
    Location:
    Coalville
    Country Flag:

    Poland

    Club or Nation:

    Leicester

    Its got nothing to do with it, the rugby culture is currently better in some countries than others, English rugby is in a very strange place, its always re-building, developing, trying to get the right mindset with the players blah blah blah. In other countries coaches try and win games from the off. One day we might get a ruthless, hard nosed coach but Im not holding my breath.
     
  10. james5000

    james5000 Bench Player

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    590
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Chiefs

    I still wonder how Jacko Gill would have gone if he was bred to play rugby, one of our top physical athletes of today
     
  11. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,449
    Location:
    Yurop
    Country Flag:

    Argentina

    Club or Nation:

    CASI

    The difference is i used a generalization for didactic reasons since i don't have the correct numbers at hand (and admitted it from the start, hence the word "guess") while you used it to extrapolate a point. Not quite the same thing.
     
  12. james5000

    james5000 Bench Player

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    590
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Chiefs

    Your numbers are so far off it isn't funny
     
  13. Cruz_del_Sur

    Cruz_del_Sur First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2011
    Messages:
    2,449
    Location:
    Yurop
    Country Flag:

    Argentina

    Club or Nation:

    CASI

    It's as if you are completely unaware about the meaning of "didactic reasons" and "directionally correct". You bring nothing to the table other than pettiness.
    You've bored me. Added you to my ignore list. Not worth my time.

    -----------------------
    Back on topic.
    Just found this video from POC that uses a very similar argument.

    http://rugbylad.com/rugbyladblog/video-paul-oconnell-recalls-a-story-that-illustrates-the-difference-between-rugby-in-ireland-and-new-zealand/
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  14. james5000

    james5000 Bench Player

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    590
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Chiefs

    The average man would agree (lol), that the numbers would have to be in the realm of possibility for it to be didactic reasoning.

    You still can't even accept that more forum users were supporting Australia (pre the world cup final) and we had a poll which resulted in 2/1 support for the Aussies.
     
  15. j'nuh

    j'nuh First XV

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2011
    Messages:
    4,209
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Gloucester

    The big circle represents the total number of players (men, women, boys, girls) and the small circle the total number of men. I think it's a reasonable assumption that there are more men playing rugby than women, so at most there are 166,000 adult women playing (but it will be lower), so a very top-end estimate for the number of adults playing is 330,000. This would infer that there are approximately 2.2 million children playing rugby in England. There are approximately 10 million 5-18 year olds in England. That would imply there are 2.2 million out of 10 million (i.e. ~20%) of children playing rugby. Which is not even close to realistic, unless you are counting children playing it in PE as being a player.

    I don't think it's a realistic estimator of interest in the sport. It would be better if there were figures on the number of club registrations.
     
  16. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,722
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Tasman


    The figures for England were from the old IRB website.. and were provided by the RFU.
     
  17. james5000

    james5000 Bench Player

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    590
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Club or Nation:

    Chiefs

    Football and Rugby are so different you need a completely different kind of athlete. Especially when you are considering Rugby forwards to Football players. How many international footballers weigh 100kgs let alone 120kgs. I don't think there is always direct competition
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  18. Tallshort

    Tallshort International

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2011
    Messages:
    5,151
    Location:
    Coalville
    Country Flag:

    Poland

    Club or Nation:

    Leicester

    With respect the RFU is wrong. Like J'nuh pointed out 20% of kids in England do not play rugby. Dont get me wrong I went to my local club last Sunday and it was packed but its not that big, no way near. Senior male players sit around the 170k mark.
     
  19. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    10,086
    Location:
    London
    Country Flag:

    England

    Club or Nation:

    Ulster

    Then the RFU is stretching the truth in some form. Not sure how, but as said, we don't have in 1 in 5 kids playing rugby regardless of gender gap.

    A fair number of NH rugby players played football to a relatively high level, there is competition and the same type of athletes are in demand until you get to the tight five. Those picking rugby will put more weight on, but the same basic frame is there underneath - particularly when talking about young kids, where the competition is.

    I feel reasonably certain that if you gave me carte blanche to remove the best suited 16 year olds from England's football academies and completely immerse them in rugby at the very least I'd get a professional standard 7s team out of it.
     
  20. TRF_stormer2010

    TRF_stormer2010 Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    8,060
    Location:
    Durbanville, Cape
    Country Flag:

    South Africa

    Club or Nation:

    Stormers

    1 NZ
    2 SA and Aussie
    4 Ireland, Argentina, England, Scotland, France and Wales
    10 Italy, Samoa, Fiji, Japan
    14 Romania, Georgia, Tonga, Canada and the USA
    19 Namibia
    20 Uruguay

    These are the 'bands' I had in mind in that results within these bands make no difference but wins between bands would be considered 'outside of expectation' (my own expectations of course).

    I'd call the top 3 bands tier 1, the bottom 3 bands tier 2 and the middle band on the fringes.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  21. TRF Mr Fish

    TRF Mr Fish Your Piscine Overlord

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    4,172
    Country Flag:

    New Zealand

    Mine would be very similar.

    1 New Zealand
    2 Australia, South Africa
    3 England, Ireland, Wales
    4 France, Argentina
    5 Scotland
    6 Italy, Samoa, Fiji, Japan
    7 Tonga, Georgia, Romania, Canada, USA
    8 Namibia, Uruguay
     
Enjoyed this thread? Register to post your reply - click here!

Share This Page