Investec Champions Cup 23/24 - Rd 1

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm presuming on that there will be an away win in the Aviva or even the RDS.
Leinster are playing shite last few weeks so a minimum of a win and expectation of a BP win.

Team who drew says what?

 

[Arcturus]

Not a great performance by Saracens. perhaps the guys didn't properly adapt to the high altitude, but either way it can't dismiss a strong Bulls performance, they seemed to have limitless energy until the last 15 or so minutes when Sarries looked like they might nick a cheeky point. There was some atrocious ref decisions though, particularly the Goode yellow and the BV red (a penalty yes), no arguments about the other card. Odd to be the only English representation in Europe to lose, but early doors and still all to play for.

"Smith can't control the game with kicking, we need Farrell"

So far showing vastly better game management than Farrell did, both ball in hand and kicking.

I caught bits of the Marcus show in Paris, and he was top draw entertainment pulling the strings, but where was this game management when Smith & Co had their pants pulled down at the Stoop last month?

 

[Scotty]

I caught bits of the Marcus show in Paris, and he was top draw entertainment pulling the strings, but where was this game management when Smith & Co had their pants pulled down at the Stoop last month?

I mean i cant speak to that game at the Stoop vs Sarries because i didnt see it, but thats like saying where was Fords game management when Quins beat Sale comfortably. Faz will be better than Smith in some areas but Smiths kicking game has come on alot to the point he has an all round game that is up there with Farrell.

If Smith can control a game with a smart kicking game and then turn it on ball in hand when required thats exactly when England is looking for.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

To say I don't want Marcus Smith to succeed anymore than he has done already in his career is an understatement. I think they should find a reason to strip Quins of that prem that they won.

But, he was the best 10 I saw play this weekend and deserves time to bed in at international level.

Jalibert was class too and I'm a fan of his so this was tough to write and Borthwick should really take note.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Not a great performance by Saracens. perhaps the guys didn't properly adapt to the high altitude, but either way it can't dismiss a strong Bulls performance, they seemed to have limitless energy until the last 15 or so minutes when Sarries looked like they might nick a cheeky point. There was some atrocious ref decisions though, particularly the Goode yellow and the BV red (a penalty yes), no arguments about the other card. Odd to be the only English representation in Europe to lose, but early doors and still all to play for.

I caught bits of the Marcus show in Paris, and he was top draw entertainment pulling the strings, but where was this game management when Smith & Co had their pants pulled down at the Stoop last month?

All sides have bad games but I'd say Smith did everything you'd expect of a 10 in his last game and in others. He is frequently labelled as erratic and being the sort of player who produced highlight reel moments but can't actually control a game. Last game he was frequently kicking into empty spaces and putting his team on the front foot. On top of that, his running game was tearing apart defences. Farrell on the other hand has had some atrocious tactical kicking games both for England and Sarries and yet would frequently be labelled as some great game controller. That's not to say he couldn't do it, particularly for Sarries, but he definitely doesn't do the flair stuff, even at his peak he didn't. Smith is now doing the tactical stuff AND the flair stuff.

Also bear in mind Farrell is coming to the tail end of his career and has tons of experience, he should have the tactical game absolutely nailed down by this point but quite often his head goes and he makes some staggeringly bad decisions. Smith is 8 years Farrells junior and I'd say he is better now than Farrell was 8 years ago. This is less an attack at Farrell and more an attack at the stereotypes associated with the players. Farrells "iceman" personality I think should have melted away long ago yet somehow sticks around. Smith gives the same or better game management and is still labelled erratic, just because he can also produce moments of brilliance on top of that. Farrell isn't scoring the try that Smith did guaranteed and not seeing what Farrell would have offered above Smith in that game.

I think we have an aversion to x-factor, frequently labelling players who offer something special as "maverick" or "erratic" or "inconsistent", as if the special stuff and the basics must be mutually exclusive. As a Bath fan, you see the difference in Bath since Russell came in and the word of mouth is it's not just what he does on field, it's that that mindset is contagious and people get up for playing when they feel you have that option.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

That DG

 

[ManxMan]

Smith looked like a world class 10 this weekend (at least to my newbie eye), I think he should play in every 6 nations game to really find out what England have.

 

[munstermuffin]

Team who drew says what?

View attachment 18549

And we should have lost.
But as we learned last year popping cherry too fast doesn't always end well.

And always remember Meg is the best out of all them and the voice behind will do too

 

[Jimbo]

I didn't watch Leicester this weekend, unless Ford had an absolute worldie Smith is really the only choice to start at 10, someone like @TRF_Olyy can correct me if I'm wrong but outside of that WC game against Arg Ford just hasn't stood out at all since injury and joining Sale which obviously coincided.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

I do wonder if he's still carrying an injury somewhere. He was incredivly consistent, rarely less than 8/10 in any given match, but since he's been trying to wrestle down some long term squeaks that has vanished

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah Rob du Preez has looked the better 10 for us on the whole the last year,
It's like you said: the skills are all there but there's just something not quite right

 

[Arcturus]

All sides have bad games but I'd say Smith did everything you'd expect of a 10 in his last game and in others. He is frequently labelled as erratic and being the sort of player who produced highlight reel moments but can't actually control a game. Last game he was frequently kicking into empty spaces and putting his team on the front foot. On top of that, his running game was tearing apart defences. Farrell on the other hand has had some atrocious tactical kicking games both for England and Sarries and yet would frequently be labelled as some great game controller. That's not to say he couldn't do it, particularly for Sarries, but he definitely doesn't do the flair stuff, even at his peak he didn't. Smith is now doing the tactical stuff AND the flair stuff.

Also bear in mind Farrell is coming to the tail end of his career and has tons of experience, he should have the tactical game absolutely nailed down by this point but quite often his head goes and he makes some staggeringly bad decisions. Smith is 8 years Farrells junior and I'd say he is better now than Farrell was 8 years ago. This is less an attack at Farrell and more an attack at the stereotypes associated with the players. Farrells "iceman" personality I think should have melted away long ago yet somehow sticks around. Smith gives the same or better game management and is still labelled erratic, just because he can also produce moments of brilliance on top of that. Farrell isn't scoring the try that Smith did guaranteed and not seeing what Farrell would have offered above Smith in that game.

I think we have an aversion to x-factor, frequently labelling players who offer something special as "maverick" or "erratic" or "inconsistent", as if the special stuff and the basics must be mutually exclusive. As a Bath fan, you see the difference in Bath since Russell came in and the word of mouth is it's not just what he does on field, it's that that mindset is contagious and people get up for playing when they feel you have that option.

Smith may very well be a better player at this point in his career relative to Farrell was at a similar age, and he could be the future for England, but we're talking about now, and since Sarries have returned to the Premiership, Farrell has come out on top (granted rugby is a team game). Farrell doesn't give you a highlights reel but in a brawl he'll be in the fight to the end which is probably why he has so much support from so many coaches and players, including - gasp - Quins players.

I read earlier this week that Chris Robshaw fully supports Farrell to lead England into the next RWC; and that was someone who was Quins captain for 3 (4?) seasons whilst Smith was there. But what does Robshaw know?

With that said, I do think Smith ought to be given the opportunity to further develop his game this Six Nations. Saracens do it all the time to make sure that come the end of the season you don't come unstuck.

 

[BrokenWing]

I read earlier this week that Chris Robshaw fully supports Farrell to lead England into the next RWC; and that was someone who was Quins captain for 3 (4?) seasons whilst Smith was there. But what does Robshaw know?

Oh well, as long as Chris Robshaw says so, who is anyone else to argue?

Having been a captain doesn't make someone a SME on captains, in the same way as having played the game doesn't mean you're an expert on it.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Farrell's not even playing for England until next year, there's no point arguing who should start because one of the players isn't even in contention

 

[Arcturus]

Oh well, as long as Chris Robshaw says so, who is anyone else to argue?

Having been a captain doesn't make someone a SME on captains, in the same way as having played the game doesn't mean you're an expert on it.

I'd put more weight behind the words of professional players and coaches than random people on the internet. But hey, you seem to know Smith more than Robshaw who was Smith's captain for 4 seasons.

It is a pity that there isn't an option to give keyboard warriors a go at being a head coach/DoR and see how things pan out.

 

[BrokenWing]

You've clung to the opinion of one player. Well done.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Smith may very well be a better player at this point in his career relative to Farrell was at a similar age, and he could be the future for England, but we're talking about now, and since Sarries have returned to the Premiership, Farrell has come out on top (granted rugby is a team game). Farrell doesn't give you a highlights reel but in a brawl he'll be in the fight to the end which is probably why he has so much support from so many coaches and players, including - gasp - Quins players.

I read earlier this week that Chris Robshaw fully supports Farrell to lead England into the next RWC; and that was someone who was Quins captain for 3 (4?) seasons whilst Smith was there. But what does Robshaw know?

With that said, I do think Smith ought to be given the opportunity to further develop his game this Six Nations. Saracens do it all the time to make sure that come the end of the season you don't come unstuck.

So we stick around with Farrell for another 4 years, by which point he will be one of the oldest if not the oldest FH in world rugby. He has not performed well enough internationally to merit that. Sure they players know him better, they are also closer and so affected by other personality traits that may make him more appealing. We are mere fans but we aren't completely stupid, we can see with our own eyes how Farrell performs for England and it is not good enough to merit him being on of the oldest FHs ever to go to a WC, just as Youngs did not merit being the most capped England player ever.

We have seen already the folly of sticking with aging players who aren't performing and flat out refusing to look at succession or contingency planning. All the Sarries players for England are getting old and, excluding George, arguably don't deserve their places any more. The favouritism must stop or we will continue to stagnate.

I'd put more weight behind the words of professional players and coaches than random people on the internet. But hey, you seem to know Smith more than Robshaw who was Smith's captain for 4 seasons.

It is a pity that there isn't an option to give keyboard warriors a go at being a head coach/DoR and see how things pan out.

Jones thought it was a good idea to go through 2 world cup cycles with only Youngs as our scrum half, not trying out others seriously until a matter of months before the WC, one time flying in a 30 something year old SH and the other getting some really young SHs with minimal experience internationally (his fault) and chucking them in at the deep end then dropping them when it went wrong even once. Jones also saw fit to do the weird flanker/lock experiments, Jones decided Farrell should play at 12. Coaches **** up a lot and make many stupid decisions, they aren't infallible. If he was, he'd still be in his job. Surely the fact he was taking England on one of the worst years since the 6N began should be a clue that maybe he DIDN'T know what he was talking about, instead being driven by ego?

 

[Arcturus]

You've clung to the opinion of one player. Well done.

One example from this week, not the only one you. That Robshaw was Quins captain when Smith was there is just a side point. Danny Care (guess who he plays alongside) last week called Farrell England's best player and supports him going forward. Ben Younges at the start of the month stated that Farrell is the best captain he has played under. During the Lions tour, Farrell receiveed the majority of fellow player votes for the leadership group. But yes, all these coaches and domestic and international former and current players think he's trash but keep playing him.

So we stick around with Farrell for another 4 years, by which point he will be one of the oldest if not the oldest FH in world rugby. He has not performed well enough internationally to merit that. Sure they players know him better, they are also closer and so affected by other personality traits that may make him more appealing. We are mere fans but we aren't completely stupid, we can see with our own eyes how Farrell performs for England and it is not good enough to merit him being on of the oldest FHs ever to go to a WC, just as Youngs did not merit being the most capped England player ever.

We have seen already the folly of sticking with aging players who aren't performing and flat out refusing to look at succession or contingency planning. All the Sarries players for England are getting old and, excluding George, arguably don't deserve their places any more. The favouritism must stop or we will continue to stagnate.



Jones thought it was a good idea to go through 2 world cup cycles with only Youngs as our scrum half, not trying out others seriously until a matter of months before the WC, one time flying in a 30 something year old SH and the other getting some really young SHs with minimal experience internationally (his fault) and chucking them in at the deep end then dropping them when it went wrong even once. Jones also saw fit to do the weird flanker/lock experiments, Jones decided Farrell should play at 12. Coaches **** up a lot and make many stupid decisions, they aren't infallible. If he was, he'd still be in his job. Surely the fact he was taking England on one of the worst years since the 6N began should be a clue that maybe he DIDN'T know what he was talking about, instead being driven by ego?

4-years is a long time; who knows what could happen in that period, injury, boredom of playing rugby, someone else breaking through. Farrell taking a year off probably does a lot to help ease the strain on his body, much as Sexton's limited match time allowed him to continue representing Ireland at the ripe age of 38. Farrell is far from perfect, but he has this Battle of Thermopylae-like ability to drive teams, even when all looks lost.

You need a mix of experience and youth to do well; of South Africa's starting 15 against New Zealand in the 2023 final, 11 were aged over 30.

Succession of talent is also incredibly important, unlike most teams, Saracens youth pathway development is alongside the more experienced ones, so that if they're called upon (e.g. Theo Dan in the Prem final) they're not out of their depth and can deliver.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

4-years is a long time; who knows what could happen in that period, injury, boredom of playing rugby, someone else breaking through. Farrell taking a year off probably does a lot to help ease the strain on his body, much as Sexton's limited match time allowed him to continue representing Ireland at the ripe age of 38. Farrell is far from perfect, but he has this Battle of Thermopylae-like ability to drive teams, even when all looks lost.

You need a mix of experience and youth to do well; of South Africa's starting 15 against New Zealand in the 2023 final, 11 were aged over 30.

Succession of talent is also incredibly important, unlike most teams, Saracens youth pathway development is alongside the more experienced ones, so that if they're called upon (e.g. Theo Dan in the Prem final) they're not out of their depth and can deliver.

Can you point to a single moment when Farrell has dragged England back from the brink as captain? I can't. Ford and Smith both have moments where their own individual initiative and taking a game by the scruff of the neck has turned things around, Farrell doesn't do that. He has had plenty of moments where he has gone to pieces and lost his head, throwing wayward passes, shouting at the ref or his own players, not bothering to put the effort into a chase, scuffing his kicks, missing huge overlaps etc. This idea that Farrell is this solid keeping calm under pressure, with you in the trenches thing is such bullshit and can go the same way as his "iceman" persona, we can see with our own eyes it's simply not true. Farrell is a players who can flourish when winning and things are going well but he is not a player who can turn it around when it's going badly.

Yes you need a mix of experience and youth, the thing is that experience needs to be GOOD experience. I don't care how many caps a player has if a larger chunk of those caps are them playing badly. Ewels has 30 caps, would I select him above any of our other locks for his "experience"? No way. You say succession is important, so what's your explanation for our scrumhalf situation, given you are also arguing the coaches know so much more than us. Is it every single English scrumhalf was just that bad that we only needed Youngs for 6 years? Now he's retiring and we have no idea at all who the successor is nor do we have any others with any experience. I don't want a repeat at FH of what has happened at SH, with 1 underperforming player gobbling up way more caps than they deserve, consistently underperforming and blocking any younger players getting a serious look in. SH and FH do more to dictate the game than any other players and we are repeatedly handicapping ourselves with this frankly ******* insane attitude of sticking with Youngs and Farrell until the day they retire!

 

[RedruthRFC]

I'd put more weight behind the words of professional players and coaches than random people on the internet. But hey, you seem to know Smith more than Robshaw who was Smith's captain for 4 seasons.

It is a pity that there isn't an option to give keyboard warriors a go at being a head coach/DoR and see how things pan out.

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There appears to be a couple of pretty serious flaws in this argument. If players' and coaches' opinions are unimpeachable, how come they don't agree with each other 100% of the time? Also, you do realise that SCW is a former player and coach, don't you?