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Izzy Folau

Cruz_del_Sur said:
Having said that, I will make a few minor points as i see some of your arguments are so out of touch with reality i cant resist myself
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I think you are the one who is out of touch with reality, so here is some actual reality for you.

Words Matter! Telling people of a particular sexual orientation that they choose to be how they are, and if they do not change then they are damned for all eternity, is discrimination against these people; any way you slice it.

Cruz_del_Sur said:
This might come as a shock, but those objectionable ideas that he presented on his personal instagram account are his beliefs.
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You still don't get it, even though it has been explained to you twice now

This might come as a shock but THERE IS A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOLDING AN OBJECTIONABLE BELIEF AND BASHING OTHERS OVER THE HEAD WITH IT!

Everyone has the absolute right to hold socially objectionable beliefs.
No-one has any right to attack others using those beliefs as ammunition!

This is what Folau did; he holds socially objectionable beliefs and he used those beliefs to publicly attack members of the LGBTQ+ community. Such behaviour is completely and utterly unacceptable in the modern day world. If you don't understand how and why what Folau did was wrong, and why it needed to be punished, then you are just as bad as Folau himself.

Cruz_del_Sur said:
His religion promotes those beliefs. Again, what he said, technically, is not very different from saying i am of (this particular chapter) of a very popular religion
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Lets be clear. Folau is a member of the Destiny Church. I don't know if you have ever heard of this crowd (frankly, you're better off not knowing) but it is not a religion as much as it is a cult, run by a scumbag fraudster.

Cruz_del_Sur said:
In a nutshell, he is being punished for saying out loud that people with different sexual orientation are going to an imaginary place. 1000th time, i think he is not only wrong and an idiot for believing that.
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You're finally getting it, or at least part of it... saying it out loud is the unacceptable bit, particularly when it targets a specific group in the community.


Cruz_del_Sur said:
Not true.
First, what you just described is a texbook case of what legally constitutes discrimination by gender/sex (depending on jurisdiction).
Second, i or you, are probably more at risk playing with the women's professional team than a men's professional team, yet the statutes would allow us to play in a mens team yet not on a women's team.
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Err what. I can't even parse what you're trying to say here
 
i cant reply to every point thats been made, too many, in general my thoughts are in line with SC...for a change ;)

I just want to say it makes me so sad that Izzy's defense, like so many other arguments out there at the moment seems to be solely based on "i'm allowed too because it my right"...when did our right to do something out weigh how it would effect others? why would anyone WANT to do something that would/could directly lead to someone feeling bad, let alone the extreme consequences of spreading this kind of message.

I'm lucky enough to work for a company that although far from being perfect takes inclusiveness very seriously , bring you whole self to work, I know a few LGBTQI+ people, not many, but it makes me sad some of them might have seen his post and it made them feel less than, i wear my rainbow lanyard (company branded, thats how serious they take it, 75k rainbow lanyards) with pride (pun intended)
 
if you really wanna get israel in deep dodo then someone should ask him how he feels about the muslims and whats gods intent for them?
I can guess his answer and i bet the fireworks would really fly then
 
The_Blindside said:
Sacked.
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Quite right too. High level breach of his contract (specifically Professional Players' Code of Conduct). Had received warnings in the past (RU stating them as "numerous" suggesting more than 1) and continued to act in breach of the contract.

This is in no way punishing him for his beliefs. This is simple contract breach and thus cancellation of his contract.

1) He took an active choice to sign the contract where he agreed to act in a certain way, and specifically to not post on his public platform in a certain way.
2) He took actions that were in breach of that contract
3) He received formal warnings for these actions.
4) He didn't heed these warnings and continued to act in a manner that was outside the agreement he made with RU.
5) He thus continued to commit breaches of his contract, demonstrating that he didn't have any respect for RU and the contract he had with them.
6) RU thus terminated the contract.
 
Yeah Izzy you really are a modern day Joan of Arc.
Outside bets he goes to the NFL? He'd be among a good few fellow nutjobs in any case!
 
Freud considered that, in projection, thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings that cannot be accepted as one's own are dealt with by being placed in the outside world and attributed to someone else.
 
Groundhog said:
Yeah Izzy you really are a modern day Joan of Arc.
Outside bets he goes to the NFL? He'd be among a good few fellow nutjobs in any case!
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Izzy would make a class wide receiver. Great aerial ability, fast, good footwork, powerful, but most importantly he just loves to receive.
 
Afl is very publicly a supporter of the LGBTQ community, they had a rainbow flag logo last year and have a rainbow round with rainbow jerseys so I don't think he'll land there either, a couple of afl players that's liked it are now in trouble
 
I'm intrigued at what's going on here. Saracens have released this statement .......

"We recognise the complexity of different belief systems and understand Billy's intention was to express the word of God rather than cause offence."
"However, he made a serious error of judgement in publicly sharing his opinion, which is inconsistent with the values of the club and contravenes his contractual obligations."

I'm sorry, I just find this bizarre. So it's O.K to think things but it's not O.K. to say things? That's frankly laughable as now all someone like Billy needs to say is "I hold strong Christian beliefs" which is simply code for "I believe that gay people are damned for all eternity". If you think it, then you should be free to say it. However, you then have to face the consequences.

It's clear that fairly mainstream versions of both Christianity and Islam (not sure about Judaism to be fair) have significant prejudices codified within them. If you're going to follow books written in the desert 2000 years ago then this is going to happen. I'm always wary of those that say "well they didn't mean it, it was just a point in time thing and can now be ignored". These texts are supposed to represent the word of God.

Personally I think religion is absolute nonsense and the idea that we need to tolerate beliefs that would clearly be banned now if someone expressed them is frankly bizarre. I'd be happier if Saracens simply said "We understand some Christians think that gays are going to hell. We think that's nonsense and won't employ anyone that thinks that".
 
Yoshimitsu said:
So it's O.K to think things but it's not O.K. to say things? .
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Oh dear, another one who doesn't get it.

Yes, its OK to think things; even objectionable things are tolerated. However, if you express your objectionable thoughts as a form of vilification of demographic groups, that is not OK in any society that calls itself civilized.

What if a white American from Louisiana (for example) was playing professional rugby for your team, and he published an Instagram post something like "All fucking ****ers should go back to Africa"? Would you be OK with that? Do you think that would be an acceptable way for a professional rugby player to behave?

A line must be drawn between what is acceptable and what is not. The vilification of people over aspects of their persona that they can do nothing about, such as race, colour, sex, sexual orientation, ethnicity and nationality, are completely unacceptable in modern Society. That is where that line is now.
 
I think Saracens have got it right they've basically said they've read Billy the riot act and the balls in his court of he really wants to make a thing of it but they wont be supporting him if he does.
 
smartcooky said:
Oh dear, another one who doesn't get it.

Yes, its OK to think things; even objectionable things are tolerated. However, if you express your objectionable thoughts as a form of vilification of demographic groups, that is not OK in any society that calls itself civilized.

What if a white American from Louisiana (for example) was playing professional rugby for your team, and he published an Instagram post something like "All fucking ****ers should go back to Africa"? Would you be OK with that? Do you think that would be an acceptable way for a professional rugby player to behave?

A line must be drawn between what is acceptable and what is not. The vilification of people over aspects of their persona that they can do nothing about, such as race, colour, sex, sexual orientation, ethnicity and nationality, are completely unacceptable in modern Society. That is where that line is now.
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he'd probably get a contract extension. i know the eagles stood by riley cooper after he said "I will jump that fence and fight every ****er here" in 2013.

Honestly the way rugby australia and the rugby world has handled this is incredible. i don't see an american sports league/team handling it as well
 
smartcooky said:
Oh dear, another one who doesn't get it.

Yes, its OK to think things; even objectionable things are tolerated. However, if you express your objectionable thoughts as a form of vilification of demographic groups, that is not OK in any society that calls itself civilized.

What if a white American from Louisiana (for example) was playing professional rugby for your team, and he published an Instagram post something like "All fucking ****ers should go back to Africa"? Would you be OK with that? Do you think that would be an acceptable way for a professional rugby player to behave?

A line must be drawn between what is acceptable and what is not. The vilification of people over aspects of their persona that they can do nothing about, such as race, colour, sex, sexual orientation, ethnicity and nationality, are completely unacceptable in modern Society. That is where that line is now.
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Appeal to your own authority eh? That's an interesting position to take and I've been civil with you to this point you may do well to return the courtesy.

"Getting it" is subjective as I'm sure you'll have to concede. Societal norms are are also subjective. The example you use is a strawman and of course easily knocked down. If a professional rugby player wrote what you have written then of course they would be sacked. However, you are proposing a position where it's O.K to think that, just not say it. I'm saying that thinking it also needs addressing. Otherwise eventually thinking risks becoming something different and people might start "doing" things.

So are you really O.K with Israel Folau hating gays and assuming they will all burn for eternity privately but only as long as he never admits it publicly? No cognitive dissonance required? Folau is either right or wrong. Allowing the thought whilst denying him the words doesn't take anything away from the fact that it's what he believes does it?

In the U.K. we have groups actively protesting schools teaching about alternate lifestyles as it offends their faith. In that case the powers that be have folded and allowed sincerely held religious beliefs to override what you have stated is inviolable in a civilized society. So perhaps we're not actually as a point where in fact the line has been drawn where you want it to be.
 

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