Izzy Folau

Discussion in 'General Rugby Union' started by The Alpha Bro, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    I think you are the one who is out of touch with reality, so here is some actual reality for you.

    Words Matter! Telling people of a particular sexual orientation that they choose to be how they are, and if they do not change then they are damned for all eternity, is discrimination against these people; any way you slice it.

    You still don't get it, even though it has been explained to you twice now

    This might come as a shock but THERE IS A VERY BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOLDING AN OBJECTIONABLE BELIEF AND BASHING OTHERS OVER THE HEAD WITH IT!

    Everyone has the absolute right to hold socially objectionable beliefs.
    No-one has any right to attack others using those beliefs as ammunition!

    This is what Folau did; he holds socially objectionable beliefs and he used those beliefs to publicly attack members of the LGBTQ+ community. Such behaviour is completely and utterly unacceptable in the modern day world. If you don't understand how and why what Folau did was wrong, and why it needed to be punished, then you are just as bad as Folau himself.

    Lets be clear. Folau is a member of the Destiny Church. I don't know if you have ever heard of this crowd (frankly, you're better off not knowing) but it is not a religion as much as it is a cult, run by a scumbag fraudster.

    You're finally getting it, or at least part of it... saying it out loud is the unacceptable bit, particularly when it targets a specific group in the community.


    Err what. I can't even parse what you're trying to say here
     
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  3. Jabby

    Jabby Senior Member

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    i cant reply to every point thats been made, too many, in general my thoughts are in line with SC...for a change ;)

    I just want to say it makes me so sad that Izzy's defense, like so many other arguments out there at the moment seems to be solely based on "i'm allowed too because it my right"...when did our right to do something out weigh how it would effect others? why would anyone WANT to do something that would/could directly lead to someone feeling bad, let alone the extreme consequences of spreading this kind of message.

    I'm lucky enough to work for a company that although far from being perfect takes inclusiveness very seriously , bring you whole self to work, I know a few LGBTQI+ people, not many, but it makes me sad some of them might have seen his post and it made them feel less than, i wear my rainbow lanyard (company branded, thats how serious they take it, 75k rainbow lanyards) with pride (pun intended)
     
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  4. mania

    mania Senior Member

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    if you really wanna get israel in deep dodo then someone should ask him how he feels about the muslims and whats gods intent for them?
    I can guess his answer and i bet the fireworks would really fly then
     
  5. The_Blindside

    The_Blindside Senior Member

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  6. BobbyM

    BobbyM Senior Member

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    Quite right too. High level breach of his contract (specifically Professional Players' Code of Conduct). Had received warnings in the past (RU stating them as “numerous” suggesting more than 1) and continued to act in breach of the contract.

    This is in no way punishing him for his beliefs. This is simple contract breach and thus cancellation of his contract.

    1) He took an active choice to sign the contract where he agreed to act in a certain way, and specifically to not post on his public platform in a certain way.
    2) He took actions that were in breach of that contract
    3) He received formal warnings for these actions.
    4) He didn’t heed these warnings and continued to act in a manner that was outside the agreement he made with RU.
    5) He thus continued to commit breaches of his contract, demonstrating that he didn’t have any respect for RU and the contract he had with them.
    6) RU thus terminated the contract.
     
  7. Old Hooker

    Old Hooker Senior Member

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    That was Mrs OH’s immediate reaction. And she’s never wrong about anything.
     
  8. Groundhog

    Groundhog #1 Cuck

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    Yeah Izzy you really are a modern day Joan of Arc.
    Outside bets he goes to the NFL? He'd be among a good few fellow nutjobs in any case!
     
  9. FLOBALOB

    FLOBALOB Senior Member

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    Freud considered that, in projection, thoughts, motivations, desires, and feelings that cannot be accepted as one's own are dealt with by being placed in the outside world and attributed to someone else.
     
  10. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague Senior Member

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    Izzy would make a class wide receiver. Great aerial ability, fast, good footwork, powerful, but most importantly he just loves to receive.
     
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  11. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    Perfect place for him would be somewhere like the Cowboys.
     
  12. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    What's the cash like in the AFL?
     
  13. Jabby

    Jabby Senior Member

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    Afl is very publicly a supporter of the LGBTQ community, they had a rainbow flag logo last year and have a rainbow round with rainbow jerseys so I don’t think he’ll land there either, a couple of afl players that’s liked it are now in trouble
     
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  14. Tallshort

    Tallshort Senior Member

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    Yeah you always find these anti Gay devil dodging types are the ones that get caught in motel rooms with handsome young men.
     
  15. Yoshimitsu

    Yoshimitsu Senior Member

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    I'm intrigued at what's going on here. Saracens have released this statement .......

    "We recognise the complexity of different belief systems and understand Billy's intention was to express the word of God rather than cause offence."
    "However, he made a serious error of judgement in publicly sharing his opinion, which is inconsistent with the values of the club and contravenes his contractual obligations."

    I'm sorry, I just find this bizarre. So it's O.K to think things but it's not O.K. to say things? That's frankly laughable as now all someone like Billy needs to say is "I hold strong Christian beliefs" which is simply code for "I believe that gay people are damned for all eternity". If you think it, then you should be free to say it. However, you then have to face the consequences.

    It's clear that fairly mainstream versions of both Christianity and Islam (not sure about Judaism to be fair) have significant prejudices codified within them. If you're going to follow books written in the desert 2000 years ago then this is going to happen. I'm always wary of those that say "well they didn't mean it, it was just a point in time thing and can now be ignored". These texts are supposed to represent the word of God.

    Personally I think religion is absolute nonsense and the idea that we need to tolerate beliefs that would clearly be banned now if someone expressed them is frankly bizarre. I'd be happier if Saracens simply said "We understand some Christians think that gays are going to hell. We think that's nonsense and won't employ anyone that thinks that".
     
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  16. smartcooky

    smartcooky Referee Coach and Advisor

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    Oh dear, another one who doesn't get it.

    Yes, its OK to think things; even objectionable things are tolerated. However, if you express your objectionable thoughts as a form of vilification of demographic groups, that is not OK in any society that calls itself civilized.

    What if a white American from Louisiana (for example) was playing professional rugby for your team, and he published an Instagram post something like "All fucking niggers should go back to Africa"? Would you be OK with that? Do you think that would be an acceptable way for a professional rugby player to behave?

    A line must be drawn between what is acceptable and what is not. The vilification of people over aspects of their persona that they can do nothing about, such as race, colour, sex, sexual orientation, ethnicity and nationality, are completely unacceptable in modern Society. That is where that line is now.
     
  17. ncurd

    ncurd Senior Member

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    I think Saracens have got it right they've basically said they've read Billy the riot act and the balls in his court of he really wants to make a thing of it but they wont be supporting him if he does.
     
  18. themole25

    themole25 Senior Member

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    he'd probably get a contract extension. i know the eagles stood by riley cooper after he said "I will jump that fence and fight every ****** here" in 2013.

    Honestly the way rugby australia and the rugby world has handled this is incredible. i don't see an american sports league/team handling it as well
     
  19. Yoshimitsu

    Yoshimitsu Senior Member

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    Appeal to your own authority eh? That's an interesting position to take and I've been civil with you to this point you may do well to return the courtesy.

    "Getting it" is subjective as I'm sure you'll have to concede. Societal norms are are also subjective. The example you use is a strawman and of course easily knocked down. If a professional rugby player wrote what you have written then of course they would be sacked. However, you are proposing a position where it's O.K to think that, just not say it. I'm saying that thinking it also needs addressing. Otherwise eventually thinking risks becoming something different and people might start "doing" things.

    So are you really O.K with Israel Folau hating gays and assuming they will all burn for eternity privately but only as long as he never admits it publicly? No cognitive dissonance required? Folau is either right or wrong. Allowing the thought whilst denying him the words doesn't take anything away from the fact that it's what he believes does it?

    In the U.K. we have groups actively protesting schools teaching about alternate lifestyles as it offends their faith. In that case the powers that be have folded and allowed sincerely held religious beliefs to override what you have stated is inviolable in a civilized society. So perhaps we're not actually as a point where in fact the line has been drawn where you want it to be.
     
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  20. TRF_Olyy

    TRF_Olyy English Arrogance

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    Just because he's entitled to his bigoted opinions doesn't mean we're condoning them.
    No one can make him think a certain way, but they can penalise him for acting a certain way if it goes against a contract he has signed.
     
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  21. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Senior Member

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    Don't see where Smartcooky wasn't civil towards you TBH.


    It isn't OK to think that stuff IMO.
    But there is a difference between thinking and platforming though, which is the matter at hand.
     
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