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Izzy Folau

Ok so regarding raising kids gender neutral I don't have an opinion. But here are some pointers to help you think about it, noting everyone that posted on the topic before my original post failed to account for at least one of the following.

1. The problem isn't about kids being forced to behave in a certain way.
2. The problem isn't even about your child
3. You are actually part of society
4. You are not a good judge of kids preferences
5. Gender and sexuality are different concepts
6. Choosing to Call a kid a boy or a girl is making a decision to impose an identity. Choosing not to call a kid boy or girl is simply not making a decision to impose an identity. It's not imposing a non-identity. That's not a thing. You can't do that, that would be telling someone they don't exist. Good luck with that.

My phone is about to die so I will elaborate a bit more later
Probably most of these points have either been elaborated on explicitly now or can be implied from what else I've said. I presume point 1, for example, is clear now.

Point 4 might need elaborating on. If you have two children, a boy and a girl, and they both play with a toy truck and a doll 50 50, you will likely think the male child has played with the truck more often and the female child has played with the doll more often. This is just unconscious bias and doesn't reflect on you as a person, because it's unconscious. It's based on social stereotypes. They've actually done studies that show, for example, that parents believe their male toddlers have better spatial reasoning than their female toddlers, fitting a stereotype for males and females that is based on brain differences, even though those differences don't develop until a much later age.
 
it's sad that hate can raise more money than someone dying.

But again I live in America where we spend 686 BILLION USd on war but won't spend money on universal healthcare.

I'd raise my child without gender (not gender neutral cause that's forcing a child to be something they may not be) mainly cause I feel most of what's left of gender constructs is consumerism and commercial products. Soldiers for boys and dolls for girls. Both make me sick.
 
TBH everyone who donated shouldn't get a refund (Well they should legally but morally nope).


On raising a kid gender Neutral, I wouldn't do it.
They are being fully refunded.
 
Folau has started another one with the Australia Christian Lobby, its up to almost $500K

Fools and their money are easily parted!
 
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Folau has started another one with the Australia Christian Lobby, its up to almost $500K

Fools and their money are easily parted!

Yes, unfortunately there is nothing can be done about that. There will be Christian organisations and Christians who will help fund his fight became they agree with Folau and see it as their duty to help him out. That is their prerogative; fool may they be. But at least he's not using or should I say abusing a platform like Go fund me, which is not meant to help causes like his.
 
it's sad that hate can raise more money than someone dying.

But again I live in America where we spend 686 BILLION USd on war but won't spend money on universal healthcare.

I'd raise my child without gender (not gender neutral cause that's forcing a child to be something they may not be) mainly cause I feel most of what's left of gender constructs is consumerism and commercial products. Soldiers for boys and dolls for girls. Both make me sick.

International relations theory.

The US has a hegemonic power gap it has to preserve, International relations theory suggests that the world system between nations is anarchic and that within this anarchic system the main aim for states is survival.

Survival is achieved through either defensive or offensive military power. So yes it's sad that they spend more on military power than healthcare but your top officials are being advised by foreign policy experts to rather spend on military as it would theoretically guarantee the existence of the American people and maintain the US position as a core state.

Sorry for the deviation of the Folau point, I just would have liked to comment on this.
 
Ok so regarding raising kids gender neutral I don't have an opinion. But here are some pointers to help you think about it, noting everyone that posted on the topic before my original post failed to account for at least one of the following.

1. The problem isn't about kids being forced to behave in a certain way.
2. The problem isn't even about your child
3. You are actually part of society
4. You are not a good judge of kids preferences
5. Gender and sexuality are different concepts
6. Choosing to Call a kid a boy or a girl is making a decision to impose an identity. Choosing not to call a kid boy or girl is simply not making a decision to impose an identity. It's not imposing a non-identity. That's not a thing. You can't do that, that would be telling someone they don't exist. Good luck with that.

My phone is about to die so I will elaborate a bit more later

Okay, so let me break this down as a parent of both a boy and a girl.

1. To raise them gender neutral or not, is kinda forcing them to behave in a certain way, one way or the other.

2. The problem isn't about our kids. I agree, it's about society, and new things/ways to raise your child but which has shown to be ineffective.

3. True. But I have a choice as a parent with which society I stand, and whether or not I invoke those ideas in my kids. It's like the choice of religion/political party etc. I am the guardian of my child, and I must protect and raise him. Not society.

4. Neither is society. But I'm a better suited individual as I'm with them every single day, I am the one who wakes up at night to help them when they can't help themselves.

5. True. But gay men still pee differently than women.

6. That's what laws and society dictate. When they are born they get classified as a boy or a girl or intersexed. I didn't choose it. Hell, I didn't even choose to have twins, God did. And he picked their sexes. My son, who is a boy has a penis and does boyish things just like I did, and I didn't force anything on to him, he's 2 ffs!!

Again, I want to raise the issue of the age of the child as a critical factor. Between the age of 0 to 13 your child is very incompetent on many issues, and gender neutrality is just another topic to be thrown in the bowl for which such a child have no idea of the concept. I say if you want to raise your kid gender neutral, do it when they understand the concept and what it entails. prior to that let them just be a kid and play and not be aware of all the horrible things in the world.
 
Again, I want to raise the issue of the age of the child as a critical factor. Between the age of 0 to 13 your child is very incompetent on many issues, and gender neutrality is just another topic to be thrown in the bowl for which such a child have no idea of the concept. I say if you want to raise your kid gender neutral, do it when they understand the concept and what it entails. prior to that let them just be a kid and play and not be aware of all the horrible things in the world.
Wouldn't that be the point of raising them gender neutral?

I have no strong feelings on the issue but i can see the benefits of not actively fostering arbitrary archetypes based loosely on the sex of the kid.

You know, dumb irrelevant things like girls liking pink and boys having to be tough and play with toy soldiers. Those things definitely aren't innate traits that we are born with. They are fostered, and for the most part are only fostered because that's what the parents learnt. So much of it is unnecessary and divisive for no societal purpose.

Having said that, i think the issue of sex and sexual identity should definitely be avoided until they start wanting to mash their genitals against other peoples genitals.

Edit: sorry for the somewhat irrelevant post.
 
Wouldn't that be the point of raising them gender neutral?

I have no strong feelings on the issue but i can see the benefits of not actively fostering arbitrary archetypes based loosely on the sex of the kid.

You know, dumb irrelevant things like girls liking pink and boys having to be tough and play with toy soldiers. Those things definitely aren't innate traits that we are born with. They are fostered, and for the most part are only fostered because that's what the parents learnt. So much of it is unnecessary and divisive for no societal purpose.

Having said that, i think the issue of sex and sexual identity should definitely be avoided until they start wanting to mash their genitals against other peoples genitals.

Edit: sorry for the somewhat irrelevant post.

Gender or the neutrality of gender is irrelevant to a child in early development phase. They rather focus on motor skills, talking, running, playing and eating and sleeping.

My daughter plays with my son's toy soldiers and dinosaurs, and my son plays with my daughter's dolls. I'm not marking the toys as the boy's toys only or vice versa. They just play with whatever they want to. Both of them got toys for their birthday which are gender specific as well as gender neutral. But I'm not forcing them to play with some and not with other. They just play. It just happens that my daughter wants to play more with her dolls and my son with his toys. It wasn't forced on them in any shape or form.
 
Hein, you should not need to justify raising your children in the way you think proper.....personally I think that people that don't have children should not even comment about this. Easy to say I will do this and this.....we will speak again when they actually have children. Not as easy as many people think.
 
Okay, so let me break this down as a parent of both a boy and a girl.

1. To raise them gender neutral or not, is kinda forcing them to behave in a certain way, one way or the other.

How? Gender neutral isn't telling them anything, it's just not telling them certain things.

2. The problem isn't about our kids. I agree, it's about society, and new things/ways to raise your child but which has shown to be ineffective.

People raise their kids gender neutral so that they can send a message to society that gender stereotypes don't have to define who you are. They aren't doing it just because they are afraid their kid will turn out transgender, as seems to have been implied.

3. True. But I have a choice as a parent with which society I stand, and whether or not I invoke those ideas in my kids. It's like the choice of religion/political party etc. I am the guardian of my child, and I must protect and raise him. Not society.

Absolutely. But the point that you may as well not bother raising a kid gender neutral because society will lead them to be gendered anyway is missing the tragedy of the commons point.

4. Neither is society. But I'm a better suited individual as I'm with them every single day, I am the one who wakes up at night to help them when they can't help themselves.

Absolutely you are probably better than society At it. My point here is that what you perceive your kids to want is likely very heavily influenced by unconscious bias. And it would be remiss of you to not recognise that.

5. True. But gay men still pee differently than women.

Gay males do yes. I'm glad you agree.

6. That's what laws and society dictate. When they are born they get classified as a boy or a girl or intersexed. I didn't choose it. Hell, I didn't even choose to have twins, God did. And he picked their sexes. My son, who is a boy has a penis and does boyish things just like I did, and I didn't force anything on to him, he's 2 ffs!!

But there is no difference between boys and girls at that age apart from physical things. The fact, if it is actually true, that your toddler of male sex acts like a stereotypical boy is either random or more likely because of societies influence.

Again, I want to raise the issue of the age of the child as a critical factor. Between the age of 0 to 13 your child is very incompetent on many issues, and gender neutrality is just another topic to be thrown in the bowl for which such a child have no idea of the concept. I say if you want to raise your kid gender neutral, do it when they understand the concept and what it entails. prior to that let them just be a kid and play and not be aware of all the horrible things in the world

Gender neutrality isn't another topic, gender is, theoretically. But I agree in practice that it would be confusing because it would contradict other messages society is giving.
I bet you are a great parent, genuinely. I have put replies to your points above inside your quote because I don't know how to separate bits of a quote, it's probably easy but I'm using my phone which is painful
 
I bet you are a great parent, genuinely. I have put replies to your points above inside your quote because I don't know how to separate bits of a quote, it's probably easy but I'm using my phone which is painful

I guess we will agree to some extent with another, and to another extent we won't on this topic. But I see your point.

The society I'm involved with, and the cultures I'm exposed to as well as my kids, makes me realise that it's pointless to do the gender neutral thing.
 
Hein, you should not need to justify raising your children in the way you think proper.....personally I think that people that don't have children should not even comment about this. Easy to say I will do this and this.....we will speak again when they actually have children. Not as easy as many people think.
I'm not judging how anyone raises their children, I have even said I am undecided on the issue. All I was trying to do is explain the concept because people didn't seem to fully understand it.
 
Wouldn't that be the point of raising them gender neutral?

I have no strong feelings on the issue but i can see the benefits of not actively fostering arbitrary archetypes based loosely on the sex of the kid.

You know, dumb irrelevant things like girls liking pink and boys having to be tough and play with toy soldiers. Those things definitely aren't innate traits that we are born with. They are fostered, and for the most part are only fostered because that's what the parents learnt. So much of it is unnecessary and divisive for no societal purpose.

Having said that, i think the issue of sex and sexual identity should definitely be avoided until they start wanting to mash their genitals against other peoples genitals.

Edit: sorry for the somewhat irrelevant post.
Sexuality is another topic though. You can raise your kid gender neutral without discussing sexual identity until they want to mash genitals.
 
Hein, you should not need to justify raising your children in the way you think proper.....personally I think that people that don't have children should not even comment about this. Easy to say I will do this and this.....we will speak again when they actually have children. Not as easy as many people think.
Yeah you start off with the best intentions but before long its dummys, happy meals and pepper pig on 24 hour loop!
 

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