June International Test: Australia vs. England [1st Test] (11/06/2016)

Discussion in 'International Test Matches' started by TRF_heineken, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. TRF_Peat

    TRF_Peat Super Moderator

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    How much difference is there between Farrell's system and Gustard's system? I'd have thought not much.

    I've see us try to blitz against SH teams and get utterly picked apart once too often. If you don't get up there in time, they'll just go round you, and that's it. England were far too easy to get round under Farrell and I'm really not sure what Gustard can do to change it. Its not like our line speed was slow under Farrell at all. No matter how quick your line speed, if they're deep enough, your blitz won't work.

    As you say a lot of defending is deciding whether to blitz or drift - although I think we did also find option 3, do nothing at all. But once a team with good hands has quick ball, I think its too easy to beat the blitz if you know what you're doing.
     
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  3. Every Time Ref

    Every Time Ref First XV

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    Possibly, but not necessarily. Gustard may simply be a better coach. He may have in effect more time to work with the players on defence as he is not the de facto assistant coach as Farrell was. Also, Gustard's Sarries defence is characterised by that very exaggerated umbrella shape - in effect using the 13 as an almost permanent shooter. That's something that could be added to England's defence.

    What do you mean by doing nothing as an option - could you elaborate?
     
  4. Zed

    Zed Bench Player

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    I thought England's blitz defence worked pretty well in the 2nd half, about 4 or 5 times they tackled us well behind the gain line and we lost a good 20m or turned it over. The thing with a good blitz defence is timing, the 13, (for example) can't go too early otherwise 10 will see what's happening and cut out the player who he originally was going to pass to, too late and there's an overlap. It's quite hard to get it right, but very effective if you do get it right.
     
  5. austingtir

    austingtir First XV

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    Thats rubbish because if you use the tactics the AB's have used to Nullify Pocock it works. Pocock cant do a damn thing about it, its written all over his face every time he was beaten in both WC finals... How can he have no answer to the same loosies we played against him 4 years later? He's had 4 years to stew on 2011 and still got totally owned.

    Then you play him at 8 when he does not give you a credible line out option or the genuine height and bulk to come off the back of the scrum and make the advantage line every time. This tactic of playing him at 8 will only work if they have Wayne Barnes as reff (who tends to allow a free for all at ruck time for teams with genuine pilferers) or some team who have never seen how the AB's have dealt to this guy in consecutive WCUPS.

    He's a good 7 but he's no top int level number 8.
     
  6. Raggs

    Raggs Bench Player

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    I don't think Haskell is all that slow. He's not Clifford but he's not slow. Doesn't have his sevens pace any more but I'd back him against the rest of our pack except for perhaps mullan.
     
  7. johnmac99

    johnmac99 Academy Player

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    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  8. Orange

    Orange Bench Player

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    I don't think anybody's ever claimed he's a top international level 8. He's a top international level 7, one of the best (if not the best) in the world, that's being played at 8 to get him into the team with Hooper.

    Did you actually read Shaggy's comment? He's saying that the very fact Pocock HAS to be nullified is proof of how good he is. It doesn't matter whether or not you CAN- as the best team in the world it would be embarassing if New Zealand couldn't counter him to some extent. Nobody has ever had to devise a strategy to nullify Chris Robshaw, or Sam Warbuton, or Thierry Dusautoir, or Richie McCaw (other than pointing at him and saying "Ref, come on" every time he infringed, which should have worked, but didn't ;) ). It's not that they're not quality players, but none offer the same massive threat in any facet of the game as Pocock does at the breakdown.

    Every time Pocock goes into a breakdown you need to dedicate two players to clear him out. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but always more than average. Hence fewer players in the defensive line, hence gaps, etc. Have you really "nullified" him, or are you strong you strong enough in other areas that even weakened by him they aren't shown up?

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    Bob Dwyer accusing Dan Cole of scrummaging illegally (ironic considering the way the frequency that the Australian front row pulled it down) one phrase jumps out:

    "on other occasions he managed to roll his right shoulder and give nothing to push against, causing Scott Sio to roll in as well"

    That's absolutely textbook scrummaging, completely within the letter of the law. Just another example of the media poo flinging from both sides.

    Marler apparently in trouble for tweeting "Bob Dwyer's a ******", which is concise at least. How can he get in trouble when he's not even in the squad?
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
  9. ImScotty

    ImScotty First XV

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    Right, we have a problem here...
     
  10. scotty507

    scotty507 First XV

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    Is the problem goode by any chance? Daly instead?
     
  11. Every Time Ref

    Every Time Ref First XV

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    I think the problem is too many Scottys...
     
  12. Orange

    Orange Bench Player

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    The plural of Scotty is Scotti. Therefore: "Too many Scotti"
     
  13. Every Time Ref

    Every Time Ref First XV

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    "Scotti surplusi"
     
  14. Orange

    Orange Bench Player

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    Wouldn't it be "nonnuli Scotti" for our scenario?
     
  15. Every Time Ref

    Every Time Ref First XV

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    I think you just out-Latinned me. Damn.

    I honestly don't know, I just assumed surplus was a Latin root and pluralised it - pluralised it wrongly, I'm pretty sure too!

    Scotti Surpli?

    Scotti Maximi?
     
  16. Orange

    Orange Bench Player

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    I'll admit to having checked a textbook then... No idea about surpli. Think the other would be greatest/largest Scottys though.

    Do we get some kind of award for strangest thread derailment?

    Back on track; what do people think of Ford-Farrell-Burrell as 10-12-13?

    Nevah hoppnin', but Burrell looked great at 13 in the 2014 6Ns (better than he's ever looked at 12 imo) and is better suited to the 13 channel blitz than Joseph. Little bit more bulk to shore up an otherwise lightweight back line too.
     
  17. TobyBeastTeague

    TobyBeastTeague First XV

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    Like you said, would never happen but would be interesting. Although, I'm not sure putting a 17+ stone 13 outside 2 10s is tactically that sound. Ideally, with 2 10s you want a fast 13, which is why JJ and Daly for so well into the game plan. Maybe with someone like Devoto inside it would be better, to recreate that 36-Burrell partnership, except with a better 36.
     
  18. Tigs Man

    Tigs Man Hall of Fame

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    Burrell is not quick enough and his defence doesn't exactly make up for his lack of speed.

    He would be done regularly on the outside IMO.

    He is a 6N's type player not a world class player.
     
  19. Every Time Ref

    Every Time Ref First XV

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    I'll stop you right there, you're talking to a JJ fetishist.

    However, just to humour the infidel ... that just feels like a weird balance to me, plus I just don't think Burrell is international standard I'm afraid. His defence has always been suspect, and defence is harder in the 13 channel. Also for a "battering ram" type player, he isn't THAT much of a battering ram, it's not like he makes many breaks or sucks in massive amounts of defenders or really bends the defensive line.
     
  20. ImScotty

    ImScotty First XV

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    @Every Time Ref is right here.

     
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  21. Colombia

    Colombia Academy Player

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    See it all the time. Funny thing is, behind the facade they know he's an amazing player just won't admit it because of national bias.

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    Great post, wish Eddie Jones could read it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    By the same token, if they do get their defence sorted out then Australia are in trouble because England had it over them at the set-piece and breakdown.
     
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