[June Tests 2018: 3rd Test] Australia vs. Ireland (23/06/2018)

[TRF_heineken]

Venue: Allianz Stadium​

Time: 12:00 (CAT, GMT+2)​

 

[munstermuffin]

I see the Aus coaches are upset that Ireland didn't allow Folau a clear line to run and challenge in the air. They are considering making a complaint over it. Seriously I don't know how to read this with a straight face. The Aus team are upset because Ireland didn't allow them win practically.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I see the Aus coaches are upset that Ireland didn't allow Folau a clear line to run and challenge in the air. They are considering making a complaint over it. Seriously I don't know how to read this with a straight face. The Aus team are upset because Ireland didn't allow them win practically.

Lol. They want the players to dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge out of his way!

It'll be interesting to see how we go this week. In the grand scheme of things Aus need a win more than us, losing a second consecutive test series to NH opposition is pretty catastrophic while we have played 30 players in tier 1 tests and have the chance to share more minutes.

Ultimately it depends on what Schmidt wants and since the last RWC I think he's found fantastic balance between building a squad and being successful. I think we have enough in the squad to win while not going all out but there's a few players that are integral to beating the Aussie side.
1. Healy
2.
3. Furlong
4. Toner
5.
6. POM
7.
8.
9.
10. Sexton
11.
12.
13. Ringrose
14.
15. Kearney

I think you can fill in the blanks elsewhere and still win. Obviously I don't think we can go all out 2nd/3rd string but there's multiple players we can play in all those positions. I think Schmidt will go pretty strong, he has a chance to make this the best calendar year Ireland has ever had by going 10 from 11 and there's at least three games between now and the end of the 6 nations to experiment more and then obviously the RWC warm ups. A win where Cooney gets at least 15 minutes would be ideal anyway.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lol. They want the players to dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge out of his way!

It'll be interesting to see how we go this week. In the grand scheme of things Aus need a win more than us, losing a second consecutive test series to NH opposition is pretty catastrophic while we have played 30 players in tier 1 tests and have the chance to share more minutes.

Ultimately it depends on what Schmidt wants and since the last RWC I think he's found fantastic balance between building a squad and being successful. I think we have enough in the squad to win while not going all out but there's a few players that are integral to beating the Aussie side.
1. Healy
2.
3. Furlong
4. Toner
5.
6. POM
7.
8.
9.
10. Sexton
11.
12.
13. Ringrose
14.
15. Kearney

I think you can fill in the blanks elsewhere and still win. Obviously I don't think we can go all out 2nd/3rd string but there's multiple players we can play in all those positions. I think Schmidt will go pretty strong, he has a chance to make this the best calendar year Ireland has ever had by going 10 from 11 and there's at least three games between now and the end of the 6 nations to experiment more and then obviously the RWC warm ups. A win where Cooney gets at least 15 minutes would be ideal anyway.

On this.
I think Scannell will go again at 2. It seems Cronin is viewed as a finisher by Schmidt and well if rumours are true it will be hard to see him go ahead of Scannell. (Bias but I rate NS over RH)
@5 (well both locks) Do you go Henderson and Ryan. My worry is Ryan is burnt out a bit. Obviously he is still producing but well is a high risk injury potential due to his volume over last few weeks.

@7 Leavy if fit, Jordi if not.
@8 Stander stats were actually very good last few weeks and this has been highlighted by Schmidt and Feek as well as journos like Kinsella, Tony Ward and Thornley to name a few. Mix in I don't think Conan is up at the level and Schmidt doesn't seem to have him up there either. It more a case I would ask is it a case of Jordi is seen as the backup 8. Equally could see POM benched

@9 - Murray and go for it or Cooney and experiment. Hard to say.

On the wings I think it may be Conway and Earls again as it will be an aerial game. Although Larmour may take 1 of these. Stockdale has done nothing wrong but again feel it will be a horses for courses where Folau is the dish.
At 15. if we play RK then that means we are going for it as not blooding a 15 means we are not thinking far ahead. Nothing to do with RK @ 15 either just need another guy playing there a bit more to build the experience there.

In centres it will be interesting to see if Aki replaces Henshaw but agree Ringrose at 13 is a must as the speed out of line was a factor for us defensively last Saturday.

 

[big ginger 8]

Your logic at 9 and 15 really means if we want to experiment Conan should really start.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I think Schmidt chooses his strongest team available. The Wallabies are there for the taking. No time for experimenting unless pushed into it due to injuries/suspensions. How many times do Ireland get the chance to win a series v a SH side 1 year out from the RWC?

This is the only match with anything riding on it next Saturday.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Your logic at 9 and 15 really means if we want to experiment Conan should really start.

Yep, I also think Stander is less vital to our game plan than Kearney. If both are for Conway* will play 15 against Argentina and the tier 2 side in Autumn having had 2 months of 'work ons' which will basically be position yourself like Kearney and be as reliable in contact.

*Unless Haley surprises us all.

 

[Amiga500]

I think Schmidt chooses his strongest team available. The Wallabies are there for the taking. No time for experimenting unless pushed into it due to injuries/suspensions. How many times do Ireland get the chance to win a series v a SH side 1 year out from the RWC?

The test series win is largely irrelevant in the bigger picture.

Even if it goes to crap and we learn that a few guys aren't at the level, then that is worth knowing now rather than then. Conversely, if we win with a wider squad selection, it puts pressure on the nominal starters to keep standards up.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Winning a test series away from home to a tri nations side is never irrelevant, no matter how much anyone wants to spin it that way.

 

[munstermuffin]

Your logic at 9 and 15 really means if we want to experiment Conan should really start.

Well more another 8 should start, but as I think Schmidt doesn't fully fancy Conan I think he would go with Murphy at 8. I wouldn't be upset if Stander is dropped as I think he is a bit burnt out even though he has played well. Same for James Ryan. He would want to be careful of doing a long-term injury.
But back on Conan, I get the impression Irish set-up don't rate him as highly and well see him as a viable option now but in a fully fit squad he is not there and in Leinster in next year or 2 he isn't as high up the pecking order. On the other hand Schmidt is a big fan of Jordi and well has mentioned him as playing time at 8 in white next year.
Also Heaslip did mention about Conan being too wide a player and while still learning he needs to develop a tighter mindset and to mix it up. Now I not 100% sure on what he meant but I presume it is a mixture of Heaslip offering advise and knowing what has been given to Conan to develop.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Winning a test series away from home to a tri nations side is never irrelevant, no matter how much anyone wants to spin it that way.

Yeah, I don't agree with that, we've only done it once before. If there was a way to swap a loss on Saturday for a world cup semi or better then I'd jump on it but you can't and thus I'd never advocate a strictly second string side.

What I do want to see is for us to win the game without picking our strongest team and I think we have the luxury to be able to do that, we're the better side and have a NH ref so this test is the one where we should have the biggest advantage having got the raw end of officiating in the last two weeks. We have to go outside our first choice at 2 because Best is gone, Scannell or Cronin would be my choice there. I'd also like to see a second row without our best lock in Ryan, a backrow without Stander as we have a lot less 8s queuing up than 6s and I wouldn't mind starting without Murray too if it's Cooney in his place. That's just three available first teamers outside the 15 and that side would be more than capable of beating Australia, especially without Genia.

 

[munstermuffin]

To add in I think it has to be a calculated experiment. Schmidt obviously would want to win but as has been mentioned if he won here and went out at QF next year then this test would be pointless in someways if he didn't learn.
Like he has learnt on his 2 options, centre partnerships, Joey at 10, wingers and some guys in the pack.
Add in off-field how lads develop and gel in camp which is a key part often overviewed in RWC due to amount of time in camp

 

[Bada-Bing!]

The test series win is largely irrelevant in the bigger picture.

Even if it goes to crap and we learn that a few guys aren't at the level, then that is worth knowing now rather than then. Conversely, if we win with a wider squad selection, it puts pressure on the nominal starters to keep standards up.

Yeah, but isn't it part of the "bigger" picture of counting down towards the RWC? Personally don't think England would have won the World Cup had they not gone down and beaten the ABs and Wallabies before 2003 RWC.

It gives the side a big confidence boost to know they have the feather in the cap of winning a series down under 1 year out from an RWC. The difference between the 1st test team and 2nd test team shows the difference between winning and losing a test away from home.

And if the pools pan out the way as expected with Ireland topping pool A and facing runners up in pool B - projected to be SA and were to beat them they could face Wallabies in a potential Semi. Better for Ireland psychologically to know they've beaten them in the Wallabies in their back yard than not knowing a place in the final is at stake.

 

[All Black]

It gives the side a big confidence boost to know they have the feather in the cap of winning a series down under 1 year out from an RWC.

Yeah I believe it does to. Its because its hard to beat a top tier one nation in their home ground. Normally, thats when they're at their very best.

 

[Amiga500]

Yeah, but isn't it part of the "bigger" picture of counting down towards the RWC? Personally don't think England would have won the World Cup had they not gone down and beaten the ABs and Wallabies before 2003 RWC.

It gives the side a big confidence boost to know they have the feather in the cap of winning a series down under 1 year out from an RWC.

This team should already know by now that they can "take" the Wobblies.

The question is, whether this squad can take them - and that needs answering now rather than at the time.

I'm not looking for wholesale changes or anything, just a few. This will probably look bad given I'm an Ulsterman, but I'd rest Ryan, Murray and Henshaw, with Henderson, Cooney and Aki in.

In November then, gametime for another full back is an absolute must - going into a world cup with just Rob (who is in great form, credit to him from someone who was, and isn't, his biggest fan - his lack of cutting edge is a major part of our lack of guile) - we also need to get another 8 on the pitch (SOB if fit?) - Farrell some time on the pitch and Carbery as well.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

This team should already know by now that they can "take" the Wobblies.

The question is, whether this squad can take them - and that needs answering now rather than at the time.

I'm not looking for wholesale changes or anything, just a few. This will probably look bad given I'm an Ulsterman, but I'd rest Ryan, Murray and Henshaw, with Henderson, Cooney and Aki in.

In November then, gametime for another full back is an absolute must - going into a world cup with just Rob (who is in great form, credit to him from someone who was, and isn't, his biggest fan - his lack of cutting edge is a major part of our lack of guile) - we also need to get another 8 on the pitch (SOB if fit?) - Farrell some time on the pitch and Carbery as well.

Yeah, but can they take a series away from home v the Wobblies? That is the question. All very well beating them at home in a one off test; different dynamic to beating the SH side's in their back yard, when Ireland are coming off their own domestic season and Wobblies relatively fresh and starting theirs. Losing to SA (yes I know it's ironic seeing as England have also done) in their back yard in 2016 , this is such a good time to correct that close 3 series defeat from 2 years ago. Two series defeats v the SH sides doesn't help the first choice believe they can win when it does matter next year. Confidence would filter down the squad after a series win.

Schmidt should know 25 of his 31 squad by now and his "ideal" 23 who he would play should Ireland progress from pool A. Yes, covering for Kearney will be important, but I think that Schmidt can Test cover for full back in November and even 6Ns. Time to play as close to the first test team as possible.

Just think This is a great opportunity for Ireland to win a series and score a psychological advantage. One, I personally think is too good to turn down just to test the wider squad in a series decider.

 

[corny]

I don't get the calls for rotation tbh. The way you build squad depth is by drip feeding in lads one or two at a time. If you make 5 or 6 changes your chances of winning are seriously impaired and i don't see what the players gain by losing. On the other hand if one or two come in they're surrounded by experienced players and are given every chance to shine. They gain loads in that scenario if we win. Scannell playing is all the squad building i want to see.

Anyway, i agree beating the Australians scores a psychological blow. I listened to Hooper post match of the first test and he talked about the decision to go for the scrum late on. He suggested getting one up there 'would change the picture to how they react in later games'. I took that as him saying it was important for them to assert dominance. I'm glad we changed his picture for him and the rest of his forwards a couple of days ago and backing that up holds huge value imo.

Btw Larkham speaking to the refs about blocking is nothing out of the ordinary. Schmidt voices his 'concerns' all the time. He calls it working with the officials. A bit rich for us to making fun of them.

 

[munstermuffin]

@corny Larkham wasn't saying he wanted to speak with refs. They were "considering lodging an official complaint with World Rugby". A big difference which was stated by Greenwood or Barnes or someone on Sky as unheard of and bit OTT in the ethics of game.
Schmidt and many more build rapport with refs and talk etc. This was going up a few levels to top bosses not even chatting to refs

 

[munstermuffin]

Yeah, but can they take a series away from home v the Wobblies? That is the question. All very well beating them at home in a one off test; different dynamic to beating the SH side's in their back yard, when Ireland are coming off their own domestic season and Wobblies relatively fresh and starting theirs. Losing to SA (yes I know it's ironic seeing as England have also done) in their back yard in 2016 , this is such a good time to correct that close 3 series defeat from 2 years ago. Two series defeats v the SH sides doesn't help the first choice believe they can win when it does matter next year. Confidence would filter down the squad after a series win.

Schmidt should know 25 of his 31 squad by now and his "ideal" 23 who he would play should Ireland progress from pool A. Yes, covering for Kearney will be important, but I think that Schmidt can Test cover for full back in November and even 6Ns. Time to play as close to the first test team as possible.

Just think This is a great opportunity for Ireland to win a series and score a psychological advantage. One, I personally think is too good to turn down just to test the wider squad in a series decider.

Schmidt probably does know his first 25 or so. Equally he knows 3 or 4 maybe even 5 of that batch won't be available come the QF due to form injury or whatever. So he will know exactly who is worth considering from 31-51 too. Injuries are certain it's depth that has become key now in modern game

 

[corny]

@corny Larkham wasn't saying he wanted to speak with refs. They were "considering lodging an official complaint with World Rugby". A big difference which was stated by Greenwood or Barnes or someone on Sky as unheard of and bit OTT in the ethics of game.
Schmidt and many more build rapport with refs and talk etc. This was going up a few levels to top bosses not even chatting to refs

Thats the headline i've heard reported in the Irish papers but as far as i can see he never used those words. This is what he said.... "It's in our hands, it's something that we have to sit down with the referees and discuss," Larkham said. "They might have a different opinion and every team in world rugby uses it and every team in Super Rugby uses it as well. "But for us I think it's two-fold. It's one, getting the kicks accurate so that our chasers aren't running between two or three guys, and then to bring it to the referees' attention just to make sure that everything is legal there. "I think Ireland did a fantastic job at slowing the ball down and again you've got to look at their tactics and say: is it something we need to bring up with the referee?"

From the bits in bold i took it that he meant speaking to Rolland (if he's still in the job).

Schmidt exercises his right more than any other coach i know. He regularly takes about 'seeking clarity' on decisions he's unhappy with games.