Moving Abroad A Problem for scottish rugby ?

[iINDOMINUSxx]

so after hearing that chris cusiter is going to sale and greig laidlaw is going to gloucester and moray low to exeter chiefs and it made me think.

do you think this is why scotland isn't on great form, and do you think this will be a big problem for scottish rugby

 

[Groundhog]

Well it's bad for the clubs but it should actually increase national depth with more young players filling the places of the guys that leave. Eg Wales.

 

[Draggs]

Well it's bad for the clubs but it should actually increase national depth with more young players filling the places of the guys that leave. Eg Wales.

That's what some were trying to say as the exodus started, but I disagree. Players leaving will open up spots for younger players, but playing time isn't everything, young players need someone to learn from and develop under. That's a huge issue at the NGD, we have young players that look promising, but need some experience to aid them. Hopefully TRT and soon Stankovich can help.

 

[Shaggy]

... from an outsider looking in, I can't see how Scotland can possibly get stronger without players leaving to play for other clubs - you either need to expose more players to the professional level, by having them play for the other clubs, or have more than two professional clubs in Scotland.

 

[Maverick1987]

so after hearing that chris cusiter is going to sale and greig laidlaw is going to gloucester and moray low to exeter chiefs and it made me think.

do you think this is why scotland isn't on great form, and do you think this will be a big problem for scottish rugby

I didn't realise they were all going to English clubs ! It's a bloody invasion

 

[Draggs]

I didn't realise they were all going to English clubs ! It's a bloody invasion

It isn't an exodus, its an invasion! (Wales and Scotland trying to ruin English rugby inside out )

 

[Maverick1987]

It isn't an exodus, its an invasion! (Wales and Scotland trying to ruin English rugby inside out )

Haha I know !! Or it could be a ploy we are signing all your best players and aren't going to play them sorry guys but you aren't in the team this week better luck next week

 

[gaston le gaff]

Haha I know !! Or it could be a ploy we are signing all your best players and aren't going to play them sorry guys but you aren't in the team this week better luck next week

But hang on a minute where is all the banter of all the players going to the TOP 14 for loads of money!!!! OR DO WE JUST GET ALL THE GOOD ONES......... Seems from media reports one or two cant hack it in the TOP 14, problem is when you play with the "Big Boys " you have to preform with the "Big Boys" not just sitting on your arse looking at your bank account.

 

[Maverick1987]

But hang on a minute where is all the banter of all the players going to the TOP 14 for loads of money!!!! OR DO WE JUST GET ALL THE GOOD ONES......... Seems from media reports one or two cant hack it in the TOP 14, problem is when you play with the "Big Boys " you have to preform with the "Big Boys" not just sitting on your arse looking at your bank account.

Except Jamie Roberts he got injured ...... Then sat on his arse ........ Looking at his bank account haha

 

[gaston le gaff]

Except Jamie Roberts he got injured ...... Then sat on his arse ........ Looking at his bank account haha

Don't think he is the only one at Racing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FrenchFan]

yep. Have yet to see Roberts deliver a performance that justifies his reputation. No wonder Racing are THE underperformers here. Foreigners with big reputation but not delivering for their club. Can't live with the pace of Top14...Home sweet home...

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

It isn't an exodus, its an invasion! (Wales and Scotland trying to ruin English rugby inside out )

not our fault that they keep buying us

 

[Big Ewis]

Except Jamie Roberts he got injured ...... Then sat on his arse ........ Looking at his bank account haha

true.

Don't think he is the only one at Racing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

also true.

But those Top 14 sides I think are so rich it's beyond caring all that much about their players. Seriously. They trade for players who are injured and they're cool with it. Habana has been injured on and off forever and Toulon seem totally cool with it. Like, why'd you pay the mega-bucks if you semi-knew this was going to happen ?.. But this isn't the thread for that.

I don't know if it's better for Scottish Rugby all these guys are leaving. It's a hard question to answer as a mere fan who, just like Jamie Roberts in Racing, sits his arse down (but sure ain't looking at his bank account grow...).

Does it develop the players themselves more so they return to the Scottish national side that much better after seasons of strengthening in the toughest league in the British Isles...does it separate and isolate them and make them more into a mercenary camp as they return for nat'nl duties...

Ideally you want a strong local league at home, something like what the English have in Europe, not too many foreigners and the nationally selected players protected by laws for national duties...just enough foreigners to make it tougher: e.g. defending against Fijian wingers, they're used to that now...
or what NZ has, down there.

But is it good for a smaller nation to "send out" its players to a bigger pool with meaner sharks but separate from their own nest and render it more harmless and less competitive yet...probably pros and cons in there but for Scotland as a whole is it globally better ? dunno...


EDIT:

yep. Have yet to see Roberts deliver a performance that justifies his reputation. No wonder Racing are THE underperformers here. Foreigners with big reputation but not delivering for their club. Can't live with the pace of Top14...Home sweet home...

Yep, we've touched on that before...I'm really not liking what some of those foreigners are doing, it's complete fkng pollution of the Top 14 (as if it needed more). It's like "ohhh, big bucks over there huh ? K, let's go. I don't give a shhit if I'm injured the whole year or underproducing, all I really care about is back home and national duty". That's at very least Jamie Roberts, Sexton and Mike Philips for you. Sexton crying non-stop about wanting to return home, bish why the fk did you make such a huge leap if you knew you were that soft inside ? Stay there in Ireland and let us keep our money. Most paid player in the Top 14, mind ya...

Only the elder guys who are usually done with national duty really take pride in playing in the Top 14: Jonny boy, Sheridan, Lee Byrne, etc...from Europe.

 

[HenryChinaski]

Yep, we've touched on that before...I'm really not liking what some of those foreigners are doing, it's complete fkng pollution of the Top 14 (as if it needed more). It's like "ohhh, big bucks over there huh ? K, let's go. I don't give a shhit if I'm injured the whole year or underproducing, all I really care about is back home and national duty". That's at very least Jamie Roberts, Sexton and Mike Philips for you. Sexton crying non-stop about wanting to return home, bish why the fk did you make such a huge leap if you knew you were that soft inside ? Stay there in Ireland and let us keep our money. Most paid player in the Top 14, mind ya...

Only the elder guys who are usually done with national duty really take pride in playing in the Top 14: Jonny boy, Sheridan, Lee Byrne, etc...from Europe.

See what you're saying, but it's the clubs - not all, but a select few - who are the root of the issue. Being willing to offer such big bucks and neglect the integrity of the game, as well as youth and development, starts with the philosophy the club sets.

I don't blame the players because they have to plan ahead. Salaries at normal clubs are not football salaries, and if you retire at age 33 you have another 30 years of working age life to provide for a family etc. Only a small percentage of players will be able to become pundits and commentators for sky sports, canal, bbc etc.

Jim Hamilton classic example: very good player but nothing extraordinary, reached the age of 30 playing for Gloucester and realised he had to plan for his future when he would no longer be able to play professionally.

Additionally, there's insufficient middle ground options for players to take; if the choice is 50,000 with the Dragons or 700,000 with Racing Metro, you barely have an option. If there was a genuine middle option I'm sure some would take it.

 

[FrenchFan]

true.



also true.

But those Top 14 sides I think are so rich it's beyond caring all that much about their players. Seriously. They trade for players who are injured and they're cool with it. Habana has been injured on and off forever and Toulon seem totally cool with it. Like, why'd you pay the mega-bucks if you semi-knew this was going to happen ?.. But this isn't the thread for that.

I don't know if it's better for Scottish Rugby all these guys are leaving. It's a hard question to answer as a mere fan who, just like Jamie Roberts in Racing, sits his arse down (but sure ain't looking at his bank account grow...).

Does it develop the players themselves more so they return to the Scottish national side that much better after seasons of strengthening in the toughest league in the British Isles...does it separate and isolate them and make them more into a mercenary camp as they return for nat'nl duties...

Ideally you want a strong local league at home, something like what the English have in Europe, not too many foreigners and the nationally selected players protected by laws for national duties...just enough foreigners to make it tougher: e.g. defending against Fijian wingers, they're used to that now...
or what NZ has, down there.

But is it good for a smaller nation to "send out" its players to a bigger pool with meaner sharks but separate from their own nest and render it more harmless and less competitive yet...probably pros and cons in there but for Scotland as a whole is it globally better ? dunno...


EDIT:


Yep, we've touched on that before...I'm really not liking what some of those foreigners are doing, it's complete fkng pollution of the Top 14 (as if it needed more). It's like "ohhh, big bucks over there huh ? K, let's go. I don't give a shhit if I'm injured the whole year or underproducing, all I really care about is back home and national duty". That's at very least Jamie Roberts, Sexton and Mike Philips for you. Sexton crying non-stop about wanting to return home, bish why the fk did you make such a huge leap if you knew you were that soft inside ? Stay there in Ireland and let us keep our money. Most paid player in the Top 14, mind ya...

Only the elder guys who are usually done with national duty really take pride in playing in the Top 14: Jonny boy, Sheridan, Lee Byrne, etc...from Europe.

these underperformers whatever their reputation will follow Ollie Barkley and many others back home. They won't stay the club if they don't deliver. There's enough competition and no shortage of top players. I believe many of these underperformers like the welsh guys at Racing will go home. Stay and deliver or else...if Racing are in the bottom half of the Top14, and its looking like they will be, there will be a major spring clean up, with a guy like Lorenzetti heads are gonna roll big time, i mean he didn't bat an eyelid when he had to sack his head coach Berbizier so..

 

[FrenchFan]

See what you're saying, but it's the clubs - not all, but a select few - who are the root of the issue. Being willing to offer such big bucks and neglect the integrity of the game, as well as youth and development, starts with the philosophy the club sets.

I don't blame the players because they have to plan ahead. Salaries at normal clubs are not football salaries, and if you retire at age 33 you have another 30 years of working age life to provide for a family etc. Only a small percentage of players will be able to become pundits and commentators for sky sports, canal, bbc etc.

Jim Hamilton classic example: very good player but nothing extraordinary, reached the age of 30 playing for Gloucester and realised he had to plan for his future when he would no longer be able to play professionally.

Additionally, there's insufficient middle ground options for players to take; if the choice is 50,000 with the Dragons or 700,000 with Racing Metro, you barely have an option. If there was a genuine middle option I'm sure some would take it.

Not sure what integrity of the game they are neglecting. Many clubs here do not follow the Toulon model. They all have their academies and some are very successful. I mean even Toulon have produced some great players from their academy. Smaller clubs like Grenoble have no stars and a majority of french players and rely heavily on their academy. Toulouse for the last 10 years have showed the right blend btw producing oustanding youngsters from their academy and foreign stars. And they have the silverware to prove it.

 

[j'nuh]

Scotland was underperforming before the player exodus. In the 14-year history of the Six Nations, Scotland have achieved third place three times, fourth place twice, fifth place six times and sixth place three times. Argentina has done well considering they do not even have a professional league. I just don't think Scotland has either the interest in rugby, or a large enough population to sustain success in the professional age, unfortunately. I can't help but feel that Italy will overtake Scotland in the not-too-distant future simply on the account of population.

 

[Big Ewis]

well wait a second Scotland was about the same population during the 90's (well less even) and they were beating sides like France or Ireland or Wales in the 6N and something to show come RWC time, made it to the 1/4F every single time but last RWC (where they were *this* close to making it). They even finished first in their Pool in 91.
I understand you're talking about the pro era j'nuh but this wasn't so long ago. The population thing isn't so much an argument anyways...unfortunately it's deeper than that. They just haven't invested enough money and effort into Scottish Rugby, that's all.

 

[j'nuh]

Scotland 90s was partly a golden generation, partly because professionalism hadn't spread its routes at that point.

You say that "they" haven't invested enough money and effort into Scottish rugby... who is they? The fans? The government? The clubs? It makes no sense for any of these parties to be actively trying to hold Scottish rugby back. Nor does it seem that any of these parties are doing anything particularly different to the other fans, governments and clubs worldwide.

The simple matter is that Scotland is a football nation. So is England, France and Italy really, but they can deal with this problem since the countries are large enough to have a number of rugby hotbeds. Since Scotland doesn't have this, Scotland struggles to muster together the support to keep the domestic game alive. Since there is no money in the domestic game, teams are finding it hard to build the infrastructure to improve and develop the next generation. Simply put, the progress of all the other nations under professionalism has outstripped that of Scotland. Scotland aren't necessarily in a worse position than they were in the 90s, it's just that they are relatively worse off compared to the tier one teams.

The most comparable nation is Wales. Wales is in a similar situation, but can get away with it because there is widespread support for the national team, and where there's that interest, there is always going to be a generation of Welsh players coming through. To the WRU's credit, the focus on building up the academies has been spot on. Wales has as much of a player drain as Scotland, and manage fine internationally.

In fact, it's only through the player drain that nations like Tonga, Samoa and Argentina are able to produce decent international teams.

The U20s give a good indication of what is happening in Scotland. No player drain there. Their performances in the U20 Six Nations match that of the national team though. Mainly 5th and 6th place finishes. This year is particularly bad so far:
Ireland 34-7 Scotland
Scotland 15-48 England
Italy 32-13 Scotland

 

[jrZielinski]

really disappointing scores for the under 20 level even though we were never that good at under 20 level and i think that is where our problem lies