My Write-Up On Where Aus Went Wrong

[dan-the-man]

I hope Robbie Deans gets flung out of the Wallabies at the first oppertunity.

Graham Henry is retiring and I'd happily take Deans in the All Blacks. His strategy failed, but the crux of it is, Graham Henry lost a RWC QF. He's been planning this since then. He's spent four years making sure we can make a final and it worked out. Deans on the other hand has spent three years getting an aging Wallabies team to become a young and talented side, but realistically it was always going to be an up hill battle beating Henry this RWC. I'd take Deans in a heart beat. With out meaning to offend any Aussies, if Deans can take Australia's limited player pool, domestic structure and limited interest and keep them the #2 ranked team in the world, and make a semi-final of a RWC, I wouldn't mind seeing what he can do for New Zealand.

That's if Henry doesn't still want the job. I'd love to see him stay on for the next RWC.

When you put it like that, Robbie Deans sounds awesome, or you could look at it this way:

The Northern Hemisphere teams are really, really poor. The only team close to the Wallabies and the AB's is the Boks, but PDV has made the Boks FUBAR (the BAR stands for beyond all recognition....I'll let you guess what the FU stands for) So if you think about it, it's not THAT much of an achievement that Aus are number 2 in the world, because the fact of the matter is that they have much more individual talent then any team from up north. My point being, they'd probably still be number 2 no matter who their coach is, except for Peter de Villiers of course.

You're only defense for Deans is that his team is young. You're not looking at the fact that age doesn't actually matter when it comes to skill and impact made. These same young players guided the Reds to a Super 15 victory, and guided the Force to do better then expected.

The simple problem with Australia is their gameplan, and I don't see how you could possibly disagree with that. Go back and watch the Aus vs Ireland game. That was a structured, kicking approach - the opposite of SUper Rugby style - and where did it get them? If you compare the teams player-by-player, the Wallabies should rape and pillage the Irish. But they are trying rugby which the majority of the players don't do naturally, and that creates problems.

See, most of the guys in the team are runners. They aren't the tight, structured guys. Even David Pocock, who is such a good fetcher, is still very much a running flanker. Genia is best on the run, so is Cooper, so is Ioane, so is O'Connor, so is Mitchell and so is Beale....the only backs who suit the structured game are McCabe and Ashley-Cooper.

And I don't think I got my point across enough that Genia doesn't pass to Cooper enough. The overwhelming majority of Cooper's ball comes from catching kicks. The Genia/Cooper combo needs to play exactly like they do for the Reds

 

[lucky number 7]

When you put it like that, Robbie Deans sounds awesome, or you could look at it this way:

The Northern Hemisphere teams are really, really poor. The only team close to the Wallabies and the AB's is the Boks, but PDV has made the Boks FUBAR (the BAR stands for beyond all recognition....I'll let you guess what the FU stands for) So if you think about it, it's not THAT much of an achievement that Aus are number 2 in the world, because the fact of the matter is that they have much more individual talent then any team from up north. My point being, they'd probably still be number 2 no matter who their coach is, except for Peter de Villiers of course.

You're only defense for Deans is that his team is young. You're not looking at the fact that age doesn't actually matter when it comes to skill and impact made. These same young players guided the Reds to a Super 15 victory, and guided the Force to do better then expected.

The simple problem with Australia is their gameplan, and I don't see how you could possibly disagree with that. Go back and watch the Aus vs Ireland game. That was a structured, kicking approach - the opposite of SUper Rugby style - and where did it get them? If you compare the teams player-by-player, the Wallabies should rape and pillage the Irish. But they are trying rugby which the majority of the players don't do naturally, and that creates problems.

See, most of the guys in the team are runners. They aren't the tight, structured guys. Even David Pocock, who is such a good fetcher, is still very much a running flanker. Genia is best on the run, so is Cooper, so is Ioane, so is O'Connor, so is Mitchell and so is Beale....the only backs who suit the structured game are McCabe and Ashley-Cooper.

And I don't think I got my point across enough that Genia doesn't pass to Cooper enough. The overwhelming majority of Cooper's ball comes from catching kicks. The Genia/Cooper combo needs to play exactly like they do for the Reds

Hahaha tripe.
And the game is played on grass ...not on paper.. Are you still looking for Cooper in Ferris's pocket?

 

[donmcdazzle]

When you put it like that, Robbie Deans sounds awesome, or you could look at it this way:

The Northern Hemisphere teams are really, really poor. The only team close to the Wallabies and the AB's is the Boks, but PDV has made the Boks FUBAR (the BAR stands for beyond all recognition....I'll let you guess what the FU stands for) So if you think about it, it's not THAT much of an achievement that Aus are number 2 in the world, because the fact of the matter is that they have much more individual talent then any team from up north. My point being, they'd probably still be number 2 no matter who their coach is, except for Peter de Villiers of course.

You're only defense for Deans is that his team is young. You're not looking at the fact that age doesn't actually matter when it comes to skill and impact made. These same young players guided the Reds to a Super 15 victory, and guided the Force to do better then expected.

The simple problem with Australia is their gameplan, and I don't see how you could possibly disagree with that. Go back and watch the Aus vs Ireland game. That was a structured, kicking approach - the opposite of SUper Rugby style - and where did it get them? If you compare the teams player-by-player, the Wallabies should rape and pillage the Irish. But they are trying rugby which the majority of the players don't do naturally, and that creates problems.

See, most of the guys in the team are runners. They aren't the tight, structured guys. Even David Pocock, who is such a good fetcher, is still very much a running flanker. Genia is best on the run, so is Cooper, so is Ioane, so is O'Connor, so is Mitchell and so is Beale....the only backs who suit the structured game are McCabe and Ashley-Cooper.

And I don't think I got my point across enough that Genia doesn't pass to Cooper enough. The overwhelming majority of Cooper's ball comes from catching kicks. The Genia/Cooper combo needs to play exactly like they do for the Reds

What you're not understanding is that the Wallabies pack isn't able to get them any good ball. The Reds pack got decent ball as SA and NZ talent is disperesed over 5 teams, Wallabies can't get go forward ball against good forward packs (e.g. Boks, NZ, Ireland). Don't blame Genia or Deans, blame the soft pack.

Also, suggesting that Australia's backline on Sat night is one of the most talented ever is hyperbolic to say the least. Fainga'a and McCabe would battle to start for a NZ Super 15 team in the midfield.

 

[dan-the-man]

What you're not understanding is that the Wallabies pack isn't able to get them any good ball. The Reds pack got decent ball as SA and NZ talent is disperesed over 5 teams, Wallabies can't get go forward ball against good forward packs (e.g. Boks, NZ, Ireland). Don't blame Genia or Deans, blame the soft pack.

Also, suggesting that Australia's backline on Sat night is one of the most talented ever is hyperbolic to say the least. Fainga'a and McCabe would battle to start for a NZ Super 15 team in the midfield.

A weak pack doesn't force Genia to box kick from almost every ruck or force him to let the forwards pick & go instead of starting a backline move

 

[Darwin]

A weak pack doesn't force Genia to box kick from almost every ruck or force him to let the forwards pick & go instead of starting a backline move

But box-kicking causes Cooper to kick the ball out on the full, miss tackles, throw passes to no-one, and generally run around like a headless choke?

Next thing you will be telling us box-kicking caused the global financial crisis :lol:

 

[dan-the-man]

But box-kicking causes Cooper to kick the ball out on the full, miss tackles, throw passes to no-one, and generally run around like a headless choke?

No excuses for him kicking out on the full off a restart, but all the other mistakes... look, he makes all those mistakes because he tries to produce magic where magic can't be produced. He feels he needs to try do a miraculous kick in a dead straight line down the touchline while being tackled, because he has no other opportunities to do something special. It's so obvious that he just tries to wildly with the little posession he gets. If he got more ball in the first reciever slot - which is very possible, even with this weak forward pack - he won't feel the need to do stupid, impulsive things on the counter attack. So, in a way, Genia's box-kicking kind of is to blame, because it robs Cooper of golden opportunities and makes him need to produce miracles with hardly any ball

Next thing you will be telling us box-kicking caused the global financial crisis:lol:

You could consider the implementation of the Euro as Europe's box-kick, and Obama's keynesian economic policies as America's

 

[Darwin]

No excuses for him kicking out on the full off a restart, but all the other mistakes... look, he makes all those mistakes because he tries to produce magic where magic can't be produced. He feels he needs to try do a miraculous kick in a dead straight line down the touchline while being tackled, because he has no other opportunities to do something special. It's so obvious that he just tries to wildly with the little posession he gets. If he got more ball in the first reciever slot - which is very possible, even with this weak forward pack - he won't feel the need to do stupid, impulsive things on the counter attack. So, in a way, Genia's box-kicking kind of is to blame, because it robs Cooper of golden opportunities and makes him need to produce miracles with hardly any ball

Do you know how many times Genia box-kicked against the AB's? Answer: 6 times*. Less than any other halfback pairing over 80 mins in the semi-finals (Weepu + Ellis 7, Phillips 7, Yachvili 11). Quade Cooper had the ball in hand 44 times, which is plenty of opportunity to show his wares (in comparison Cruden had it 34 times, Parra 20, and Hook + Jones 51). A few of these times were retrieving the ball from kicks, but the majority of these times were at first receiver. The fact that Genia deprived him of 6 chances to show his wares shouldn't be an excuse for him playing poorly! I have nothing against Cooper, but he has thus far struggled to adjust to test rugby - he certainly has all the skills, but hasn't made the step up from Super Rugby.... yet. At the next RWC, with another 4 years experience, he could be a very scary prospect!

*All stats courtesy of www.espnscrum.com

 

[dan-the-man]

Do you know how many times Genia box-kicked against the AB's? Answer: 6 times*. Less than any other halfback pairing over 80 mins in the semi-finals (Weepu + Ellis 7, Phillips 7, Yachvili 11). Quade Cooper had the ball in hand 44 times, which is plenty of opportunity to show his wares (in comparison Cruden had it 34 times, Parra 20, and Hook + Jones 51). A few of these times were retrieving the ball from kicks, but the majority of these times were at first receiver. The fact that Genia deprived him of 6 chances to show his wares shouldn't be an excuse for him playing poorly! I have nothing against Cooper, but he has thus far struggled to adjust to test rugby - he certainly has all the skills, but hasn't made the step up from Super Rugby.... yet. At the next RWC, with another 4 years experience, he could be a very scary prospect!

*All stats courtesy of www.espnscrum.com

Couldn't find those particular stats on espnscrum. Can't be correct though, simply can't. It's a known fact that Genia has been kicking waaaaay too much

 

[Shaggy]

Couldn't find those particular stats on espnscrum. Can't be correct though, simply can't. It's a known fact that Genia has been kicking waaaaay too much

Link to ESPN New Zealand and Australia game stats (click on the relevant team tab)

http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/93503.html

Link to ESPN France and Wales game stats

http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/93502.html

As you can see, Darwin has some evidence to back up his claim, where as you haven't provided anything except stating your opinion as a "known fact"

 

[TRF_heineken]

Link to ESPN New Zealand and Australia game stats (click on the relevant team tab)

http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/93503.html

Link to ESPN France and Wales game stats

http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/93502.html

As you can see, Darwin has some evidence to back up his claim, where as you haven't provided anything except stating your opinion as a "known fact"

If you haven't realised by now that old danny boy here has an obsession with box kicks on this forum, then you haven't been here long enough... this is all he can ever talk about, either he's criticizing Fourie du Preez for doing it too much, or Will Genia for throwing away posession or that it should be banned from rugby union in totality... It's all he ever talks about! so don't bother arguing with the nutter, he just doesn't know enough about the other parts of the game of rugby...

I bet 1000 vCash he's an AFL fan...

 

[Darwin]

Link to ESPN New Zealand and Australia game stats (click on the relevant team tab)

http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/93503.html

Link to ESPN France and Wales game stats

http://www.espnscrum.com/2011-rugby-world-cup/rugby/match/93502.html

As you can see, Darwin has some evidence to back up his claim, where as you haven't provided anything except stating your opinion as a "known fact"

Thanks for putting those specific links in Shaggy - I should have done that myself to make it easier for people!

 

[Shaggy]

If you haven't realised by now that old danny boy here has an obsession with box kicks on this forum, then you haven't been here long enough... this is all he can ever talk about, either he's criticizing Fourie du Preez for doing it too much, or Will Genia for throwing away posession or that it should be banned from rugby union in totality... It's all he ever talks about! so don't bother arguing with the nutter, he just doesn't know enough about the other parts of the game of rugby...

I bet 1000 vCash he's an AFL fan...

:lol: ... you know, we all have our little hobby horses don't we ... it's not really important to me who's right and who's wrong on this issue anyway

... everyone's entitled to their opinion, but if you are going to go to the trouble of expressing it, and you want to convince others, if you can back it up with some supporting facts, it certainly helps.

@ darwin23 ... no worries about the links, I wanted to see the stats for myself, and had a few attempts to find them, so I've now got a better idea of how that site works

 

[dan-the-man]

If you haven't realised by now that old danny boy here has an obsession with box kicks on this forum, then you haven't been here long enough... this is all he can ever talk about, either he's criticizing Fourie du Preez for doing it too much, or Will Genia for throwing away posession or that it should be banned from rugby union in totality... It's all he ever talks about! so don't bother arguing with the nutter, he just doesn't know enough about the other parts of the game of rugby...

I bet 1000 vCash he's an AFL fan...

Went a bit overboard and unneccasery in that post. There is no reason for you to tell me I don't know anything about the other parts of the game etc.

Darwins facts don't show whether or not the kicks were box-kicks or territorial kicks (territorial kicks I am all for), and it certainly does not show what slot Quadey was in when he reieved the ball?

And actually, we don't even get AFL in South Africa, except maybe a couple of random matches on ESPN, which I don't watch. Don't make stupid assumptions about people when you don't know them at all. At least me and Darwin are arguing about the topic at hand. There's no need for you to come here and start calling me a "nutter" and telling me that I don't know anything about the other aspects of rugby, when the debate was perfectly healthy and civil before you joined in.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Darwins facts don't show whether or not the kicks were box-kicks or territorial kicks (territorial kicks I am all for), and it certainly does not show what slot Quadey was in when he reieved the ball?

So you're still trying to say he kicked too much after the stats show he only did so 6 times? Of which I can remember 3 that were defensive that Cory Jane snapped up. You're inventing an issue here, Genia's box kicking isn't to blame for "Quadey" having an average game.

You're ignoring my point about the forwards too. You want them to play like the Reds, bu they can;t when the pack is getting pushed backwards most of the time. You can;t just spin slow, static ball to your backs.

 

[UilamOsa]

You're ignoring my point about the forwards too. You want them to play like the Reds, bu they can;t when the pack is getting pushed backwards most of the time. You can;t just spin slow, static ball to your backs.

He's ignoring everyone's point about the forwards.

Rugby is played by the Backs only and apparently a team will lose by a thousand points if they Box Kick and Quade Cooper cannot destroy teams if the halfback in front of him Box Kicks more than 5 times.

 

[Tomsey]

as I've said before dan-the-man, your analysis of Robbie Deans team selections is small minded and incorrect but I do agree with you on the box kick. Its a stupid tactic when ever you use it but it is especially stupid when your halfback is not very good at box kicking, your wingers are awesome (it effectively turns them into kick chasers and nullifies their impact) and your box kicking to Cory Jane (who is the best winger in the world under the high ball)

 

[dan-the-man]

He's ignoring everyone's point about the forwards.

Rugby is played by the Backs only and apparently a team will lose by a thousand points if they Box Kick and Quade Cooper cannot destroy teams if the halfback in front of him Box Kicks more than 5 times.

If you go back and watch the game, you'll see that they hardly ever actually played with the backs when they had any attacking opportunities. Look at how when there were a few minutes to go and they just went with the pick & go at the try line instead of playing with the backs! That, and the box-kick, is the problem.

Yes, the forwards are about as physical as the Telletubbies, that's why Aus should use their backline more!

All I'm saying is, instead of box-kicking, spread it wide or do clever set plays.

Instead of giving it to the forwards to pick & go or form that stupid pod thing (I hate that almost as much as the box kick), spread it wide or do clever set plays.

My whole point from the start? Spread it wide and do clever set plays with the backs, like the Reds did! I don't see how so much objection and hostility can come towards me for this simple view. If you think box-kicking is good, or giving the ball to handling-error-prone forwards on attack is good, then I don't even want to bother arguing with you

 

[lucky number 7]

If you go back and watch the game, you'll see that they hardly ever actually played with the backs when they had any attacking opportunities. Look at how when there were a few minutes to go and they just went with the pick & go at the try line instead of playing with the backs! That, and the box-kick, is the problem.

Yes, the forwards are about as physical as the Telletubbies, that's why Aus should use their backline more!

All I'm saying is, instead of box-kicking, spread it wide or do clever set plays.

Instead of giving it to the forwards to pick & go or form that stupid pod thing (I hate that almost as much as the box kick), spread it wide or do clever set plays.

My whole point from the start? Spread it wide and do clever set plays with the backs, like the Reds did! I don't see how so much objection and hostility can come towards me for this simple view. If you think box-kicking is good, or giving the ball to handling-error-prone forwards on attack is good, then I don't even want to bother arguing with you

Clever set plays will never work without a solid platform and quick ball provided by the forward pack ...without forwards having a decent game and sucking in the defenders you haven't a hope.

 

[dan-the-man]

Clever set plays will never work without a solid platform and quick ball provided by the forward pack ...without forwards having a decent game and sucking in the defenders you haven't a hope.

Okay but then what do you reccomend they do? You can't just tell the forwards "Hey! Stop being useless!" and then expect them to suddenly be dominant. The strength of Australia is their class backline, and they need to play to that strength. Guys like Ioane, JOC, Quade, Beale and co are more then capable of sucking in defenders themselves

 

[User1245]

Well I've read this whole thread and I think that you, dan-the-man, have a very limited and shallow tactical knowledge of the game. You can decide whether you want to take that as an insult or the truth as I see it.
The old rugby cliche is the game is won up front first. There is a reason why it is a cliche. Because its one of the fundamental truths of the sport. Choose to ignore it at your own peril.

Rugby is a dynamic game. Having an "awesome backline" can be a strength but a very vulnerable thing to rely on. Rugby is not just an offensive game! It has defence, lineouts, scrums, rucks, rolling mauls and kicking. All of these you have be good at or you will be overridden by your opponents team.

Its the ultimate team sport, with a whole bunch of players with completely different, yet interdependent roles. Players rely on the other players to do their bit, so they can do their own.

Just giving it to "Quadey" is not a tactic! Neither is just swinging to Digby.
You need a good forward pack to secure that right to swing it and have a go, otherwise you'll just be squeezed out the game whether that's at the set piece or congested defensive lines. Oz's problem is that they can't contest upfront consistently. They therefore rely on other high risk tactics like turnover ball and counter attacking.

I've haven't backed them as threat this WC for that reason. They've got too many holes in their game. Had if they had to adapt to the style you're preaching they wouldn't make it out the pool stage.