New laws...

[ratsapprentice]

So I've watched Canterbury's two games so far this year (tracking Nathan Earle), and was wondering what you guys have thought of the new laws that are being trialled?

I know the NPC is normally a very fast, flowing competition, but it has struck me that the rucks have been cleaned up massively with the new laws.
It's not that there's no competition, but that the competition doesn't really slow the ball down that much - players either steal the ball or kick it out of the ruck immediately, rather than a 5+ second wrestling battle before the outcome.

So there are just as many turnovers, but the ball is in play far more because the ball doesn't stay in the ruck for very long at all.

Anyone else seeing the same thing, or just me?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I haven't seen these new law changed in action yet, but from the sounds of it I'm not much of a fan. As a forward a part of the game I enjoy most is the rucking and the competition there, which goes beyond the first clear out or turnover that occurs there. Sounds like it's becoming a bit League-like. But as I said, I haven't seen the law changes so I'm probably completely wrong.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's not league-like, it's just that (from what I've seen) generally you either win your own ball quickly, or you lose it quickly... not every ruck is a "contest".

I put the "contest" in inverted commas because, let's face it; it's fairly rare for a team to win a ruck after a concerted counter, they either get someone on the ball before it's formed or they slow it down.
This just removes a large amount of ruck "wrestling" (it's not really rucking) that doesn't actually achieve anything other than slowing the game down.

 

[Every Time Ref]

What are the new laws exactly?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Big thing I've noticed is that players are staying significantly more upright - as the second video above backs up.

Because of this, you're getting far less uber brutal clearouts, which is massive from a player welfare POV.
Techniques like croc-rolls are pretty much redundant.

In effect - they've re-worded and established existing laws, so that rucks look a lot more like they used to 10-15 years ago.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

i like them, but i think if they get implemented worldwide defenses are going to find a way to skirt the laws and referees are going to allow the breakdown to become a mess again... i'd rather we just actually enforce the breakdown properly now

 

[smartcooky]

<videos removed="">
Big thing I've noticed is that players are staying significantly more upright

Because of this, you're getting far less uber brutal clearouts, which is massive from a player welfare POV.
Techniques like croc-rolls are pretty much redundant.

In effect - they've re-worded and established existing laws, so that rucks look a lot more like they used to 10-15 years ago.

I've been watching these Trial laws for a few weeks now from the sideline as they have been playing them in the Tasman Club rugby competition since it started in May. The M10 Cup has now given me the opportunity to see from an elevated viewpoint and therefore, a better view of the breakdown..

Here are few things I have noticed.

1. Referees are hammering players who go to ground at the tackle/breakdown. If they join too low and lose their feet they get penalised so the team taking the ball into contact cannot just drive in low over the ball and effectively seal it off. The result of this has been that, if the defending team are skillful enough, they will have an opportunity to drive through the breakdown and past the ball. Pretty much any player who goes to ground not in physical contact with an opponent is being pinged. This has resulted in a lot more players staying on their feet, and has made the tackle/breakdown more "dynamic".

2. Tacklers are also being hammered for not rolling away. There are no excuses now because with players on their feet, there is little chance of a player being trapped. They are being told that they are responsible for where they fall, and if they fall on the wrong side and become trapped, that is not an excuse. I have heard referees a few times telling players words to the effect that "you fell there, your problem!"

3. Side entry has been redefined; there is no Tackle Gate. In these Trial Laws you now only have to enter on your side of the halfway point of the breakdown and you don't have to join parallel to the touchline, you can enter at any angle. This gives the defensive team a realistic chance to flood the breakdown and walk over the ball, and many have been taking it.

4. Driving must also be straight, i.e. driving over and past the ball is OK, but driving around the outside into that back is not. Players who join a breakdown and then drive an opponent around the outside (into the area where the SH is trying to pick up the ball) are being penalised for offside.

5. On of the major concerns of coaches was that the game would become like "league with unlimited tackles" because the defensive team would be unable to turn the ball over, and would simply fan out on defence. That was a concern I had previously expressed to some local referees. As it turns out, this has not what has been happening.. It seems to have become more common for the team not in possession to "counter-ruck". While jackler turnovers are much harder to get and have decreased, the overall number of turnovers has gone up slightly as teams have worked out that by committing a couple of extra players, they can push/drive their opponents off the ball. IMO, this is due in part to the fact that retiring players can join the breakdown more quickly through not having to enter through the gate, and partly because players off their feet are being hammered by the referee, resulting in more players being on their feet. It is physically easier to push a standing opponent backwards than it is to push back a prone one.

6. Another result of players being more upright is that their vision is better and they are in a better position to use their feet, so when they see the ball on the ground and its within reach, they sometimes kick the ball out of the breakdown.

The upshot of these changes is that the speed of the game has increased noticeably. Tackled players place the ball back as quickly as they can to get the ball clear. Overall, I think the changes have been positive so far, but its early days yet. IMO these Laws will see the specialist jackler become a less important part of the game (looks like Ritchie retired at just the right time

)</videos>

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I've been watching these Trial laws for a few weeks now from the sideline as they have been playing them in the Tasman Club rugby competition since it started in May. The M10 Cup has now given me the opportunity to see from an elevated viewpoint and therefore, a better view of the breakdown..

Here are few things I have noticed.

1. Referees are hammering players who go to ground at the tackle/breakdown. If they join too low and lose their feet they get penalised so the team taking the ball into contact cannot just drive in low over the ball and effectively seal it off. The result of this has been that, if the defending team are skillful enough, they will have an opportunity to drive through the breakdown and past the ball. Pretty much any player who goes to ground not in physical contact with an opponent is being pinged. This has resulted in a lot more players staying on their feet, and has made the tackle/breakdown more "dynamic".

2. Tacklers are also being hammered for not rolling away. There are no excuses now because with players on their feet, there is little chance of a player being trapped. They are being told that they are responsible for where they fall, and if they fall on the wrong side and become trapped, that is not an excuse. I have heard referees a few times telling players words to the effect that "you fell there, your problem!"

3. Side entry has been redefined; there is no Tackle Gate. In these Trial Laws you now only have to enter on your side of the halfway point of the breakdown and you don't have to join parallel to the touchline, you can enter at any angle. This gives the defensive team a realistic chance to flood the breakdown and walk over the ball, and many have been taking it.

4. Driving must also be straight, i.e. driving over and past the ball is OK, but driving around the outside into that back is not. Players who join a breakdown and then drive an opponent around the outside (into the area where the SH is trying to pick up the ball) are being penalised for offside.

5. On of the major concerns of coaches was that the game would become like "league with unlimited tackles" because the defensive team would be unable to turn the ball over, and would simply fan out on defence. That was a concern I had previously expressed to some local referees. As it turns out, this has not what has been happening.. It seems to have become more common for the team not in possession to "counter-ruck". While jackler turnovers are much harder to get and have decreased, the overall number of turnovers has gone up slightly as teams have worked out that by committing a couple of extra players, they can push/drive their opponents off the ball. IMO, this is due in part to the fact that retiring players can join the breakdown more quickly through not having to enter through the gate, and partly because players off their feet are being hammered by the referee, resulting in more players being on their feet. It is physically easier to push a standing opponent backwards than it is to push back a prone one.

6. Another result of players being more upright is that their vision is better and they are in a better position to use their feet, so when they see the ball on the ground and its within reach, they sometimes kick the ball out of the breakdown.

The upshot of these changes is that the speed of the game has increased noticeably. Tackled players place the ball back as quickly as they can to get the ball clear. Overall, I think the changes have been positive so far, but its early days yet. IMO these Laws will see the specialist jackler become a less important part of the game (looks like Ritchie retired at just the right time

)</videos>

i think the thing about turnovers going up isn't too surprising since the laws encourage an actual contest for the ball rather than just falling onto the ruck to secure the ball

i do however think that if these laws are implemented within five years all the positives these laws have created will be worn away as players adjust

 

[Five Meters Out]

I haven't seen these new law changed in action yet, but from the sounds of it I'm not much of a fan. As a forward a part of the game I enjoy most is the rucking and the competition there, which goes beyond the first clear out or turnover that occurs there. Sounds like it's becoming a bit League-like. But as I said, I haven't seen the law changes so I'm probably completely wrong.

There is still "competition", but the "competition" is more upright in nature and as others have said, is over more quickly. Initially I thought that'll be the end of it for props at the breakdown, but now I think they can use there strength to make a real impact (I hope so anyway cause one of my sons is a big slow prop). Same with the "Richie McCaws". They will still arrive quickly to the breakdown and make a nuisance of themselves provided they stay on their feet.
I loved the Richie MCaw/ Pocock type of tackle and up to compete, but that is now gone. That type will adapt and i feel I can as well.
Does it suit the All Blacks? Quicker ball, faster game - it has too?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Always the SH trailing new laws to try and get more bums on seats. Why don't we just merge league and union so the Aussies can be happy, sod the rest of the world.

Instead of changing the laws why don't they just enforce the current ones.

 

[Tony Manx]

Always the SH trailing new laws to try and get more bums on seats. Why don't we just merge league and union so the Aussies can be happy, sod the rest of the world.

Instead of changing the laws why don't they just enforce the current ones.

My thoughts entirely!

 

[ratsapprentice]

Always the SH trailing new laws to try and get more bums on seats. Why don't we just merge league and union so the Aussies can be happy, sod the rest of the world.

Instead of changing the laws why don't they just enforce the current ones.

So, by that... I'm guessing you didn't read any of the thread?

 

[Car]

Honestly, the scrum and the ruck have been a mess for years and far too often, the game just gets slowed down far too much by it. So I like that they've been trying to find ways to make the game faster and cleaner. As long as it doesn't become like rugby league, I'm fine with new things being tried out. What @smartcooky wrote sounds good to me.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

it's not making the game anymore like league... it is just simplifying the breakdown so that it isn't a cluster****... this should alllow for more actual rucks that don't collapse cause players are coming from all over the place

 

[ratsapprentice]

Precisely - it would be more accurate to say that they are simply enforcing the laws (which were always there) that prohibit players from leaving their feet at the ruck.

 

[smartcooky]

Always the SH trailing new laws to try and get more bums on seats. Why don't we just merge league and union so the Aussies can be happy, sod the rest of the world.

New Laws are not just trialed in the SH. In 2016, Law Trials are happening in Wales ( Principality Cup); and that was in the NH last time I looked, Australia (National Rugby Championship), and New Zealand (M10 Cup). Other tournaments will follow in other countries including Scotland and South Africa, as well as number of World Rugby competitions, namely the Pacific Challenge Cup, the World U20 Trophy , the Nations Cup and the Tbilisi Cup,;

Countries undertake to do Law Trials BECAUSE THEY ARE ASKED TO BY WORLD RUGBY!!!

Instead of changing the laws why don't they just enforce the current ones.

Enforcing current Laws will not address the safety issues (such as the high injury tolls and concussions) currently facing rugby union. The change in the breakdown Laws is driven primarily by player safety.

Now here is some friendly advice. In future, go do just a little bit of research so that you can post from a standpoint of having some idea what you are talking about. This will ensure that you don't continue to make a dick of yourself in front of everyone here.

 

[smartcooky]

it's not making the game anymore like league... it is just simplifying the breakdown so that it isn't a cluster****... this should alllow for more actual rucks that don't collapse cause players are coming from all over the place

Precisely - it would be more accurate to say that they are simply enforcing the laws (which were always there) that prohibit players from leaving their feet at the ruck.

Not really. There are actual changes to written Laws, not just interpretation. Read my Post #7, especially point 3

The there are some key changes that are making a big difference

1. The removal of the "tackle gate" and its replacement with the "breakdown mid-line",
2. The removal of the rights of the tackler to play the ball from any direction
3. Making the placing of hands in the ground beyond the ball an offside infringement
4. Removal of the Law allowing the jackler to hold onto the ball once a ruck is formed
5. The requirement of only one player on their feet over the ball (instead of two) to form a breakdown

Additionally, there is one key aspect that is expected to have a big effect on tackle/ruck injury rate. Under current Law players only had to "endeavour" to stay on their feet. Now they MUST stay on their feet, and even those that go down inadvertently are being penalised. Previously, players would charge into a breakdown at high speed with a low body position to try to clean out the jackler and other players with low body positions guarding the ball. Now, arriving players are expected to slow down into the breakdown to make sure they don't overshoot the ball onto the ground. This has resulted in a more upright ruck. There is still a contest, but its higher over the ball rather than lower, and this has reduced a lot of the dangerous concussive impacts that we have been seeing in the game.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I know, Cooky... as I said in the OP - I've been watching the games.

My post was in response to those saying that it's turning the game into RL - to simplify the effects of the laws.

 

[smartcooky]

I know, Cooky... as I said in the OP - I've been watching the games.

My post was in response to those saying that it's turning the game into RL - to simplify the effects of the laws.

There are a couple of key thing that are making the breakdown easier to referee

1. Under current Law, it can be difficult when two or three players might have their hands on the ball carrier, to identify which players were responsible for bringing the ball carrier to ground (Tacklers) and which ones were not (Tackle Assists). In the Law Trials, the tackler has only the same ball-playing rights as any other player at, or arriving at, the breakdown, so there is no need for the referee to try to identify who is who.

2. The removal of the tackle gate and its replacement with the breakdown mid-line means there is no longer any such thing as a "side entry" infringement. Players can enter from any direction, so long as they enter on their own side of the mid-line. If they enter ahead of it, no matter what direction they are coming from, they are Offside at the Breakdown. From a referee perspective, he now only has to see where they entered and not where they came from.

3. With the players being more upright and on their feet, the breakdown has become more "open", so it is much easier for the referee to see what is going on there.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Thanks for talking at me again.